A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin: I’ve been thinking a lot about authenticity lately. That word is thrown around so much right now that I’m afraid it’s losing some of its power. But regardless, we all seem to be craving it, right? Real interactions with people. Authentic connections. The rough, messy truth of things. It’s definitely one of the big reasons I started Wild Card, and it’s what I want in my own life. I want it in my relationships, but I also want it in the music, the films and the books I consume, all the things.

Every artist is after authenticity in some way, but the thing I love about Kacey Musgraves is that she just is it. From the beginning of her career, the songs she wrote were just about the life she was living and how she saw the world. She sang about falling in love with fellow country musician Ruston Kelly and getting married to him. And then later on, she sang about falling out of love with him and getting divorced. But she also sings about smoking pot and queer relationships. And she’s the kind of artist who will put a disco song on one of her albums and not give two hoots if you think she’s not country enough, thank you very much.

Musgraves is making her art her way and she’s making it for herself. That other people dig it, that’s some sort of major fringe benefit that has put her at the top of the charts and won her album of the year at the Grammys in 2019 (and it was only the fourth country album to ever get that honor). Musgraves’ latest album is Deeper Well and she’s on tour now.

This Wild Card interview has been edited for length and clarity. Host Rachel Martin asks guests randomly-selected questions from a deck of cards. Tap play above to listen to the full podcast, or read an excerpt below.

Question 1: What’s something about the place you grew up that you couldn’t wait to leave behind?

Kacey Musgraves: First of all, I’m going to say that I had a wonderful childhood, but I did grow up in a very conservative part of East Texas.

Rachel Martin: Tell me the name of the town.

Musgraves: Golden. It’s really small. There is a post office, but there’s not a school. It’s not big enough for a school. So I think growing up there, it’s different than growing up in a city where there’s, like, a million different viewpoints and there’s a million different religions and a million different cultures and languages. There’s a lack of diversity where I grew up. And I just had this urge to see the world and travel – that’s when I started really understanding that everyone is the same, you know? And I wouldn’t have gotten that if I would have stayed there.

Martin: I get that. I came from a small town in Idaho. I totally felt that too. And I can’t figure out how I knew any different, you know? Because it was just my whole world and my family had been, like, from the same place for five, six generations.

Musgraves: Right.

Martin: Did you have family who lived in other places? Like, how did it come into your imagination that there was a different way to live?

Musgraves: I think it’s just a natural curiosity. And thinking that really anything is possible. And that I don’t have to do it the same way as everyone else.

Question 2: Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you came to find out wasn’t true?

Musgraves: This also gets to where I grew up and preconceived notions about certain things. For instance, the acceptance of people in the queer community was kind of nonexistent where I grew up. I could count on one hand the amount of times I encountered an openly gay person. That’s not to say that I encountered people who weren’t closeted. But, there was a majority view of, “It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” That kind of mentality.

So I left Texas with this kind of idea that, “Well, people choose to be that way.” And when I moved to Nashville, I started making friends in that community. And I had a boyfriend at the time who did me a huge favor. He was from a completely different upbringing than me, a liberal family in upstate New York. He had a ton of gay friends and he just sat me down one day and we had a real hard and honest conversation about it.

Musgraves performs in Nashville in March.

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He was like, “Listen, you do not have the right perspective on this.” He just helped me completely open up my eyes and see and I was just like, “Damn, I’m so glad that I had the opportunity to get out of where I came from, and to have my eyes and my heart open to this really wonderful community, and they’ve made me way more well rounded.”

Martin: You talk about queer relationships in your art. I mean, that’s clearly intentional. Do you feel sort of an obligation to use your platform that way?

Musgraves: Well, one of the best compliments that I’ve ever received in terms of my music and who I am in the world is that occasionally people will come up to me and say, “Hey, I grew up in a really small town like you did, and I’ve always loved country music, but I’ve never felt invited to that party.” Honestly, it really wasn’t about ever pushing buttons. It just was me observing what was happening around me and doing my job as a songwriter to put that in the form of a song.

And to me, country music is always about real people, real stories. And why wouldn’t it continue to evolve?

Question 3: Does time feel like a positive or negative force in your life right now?

Musgraves: Honestly, the passage of time is something that like, really f***s me up.

Martin: Really?

Musgraves: Yeah. There’s something so melancholy about it. Just seeing your grandparents get older, your parents get older, relationships changing. Looking in the mirror and seeing wrinkles that weren’t there before. It’s really trippy, like how it moves and bends.

I’m just thankful. I’m thankful for it. I’m thankful for the time I have. And I do feel like life keeps getting better as I get older. That’s something that everyone that’s older than you tells you, and you’re like, “Yeah, whatever.” But, I do feel that.

I’m in a period of time where this chapter is not defined by anyone else but me. And I don’t know what’s going to come next. And that’s rare for me. I feel like I’m usually jumping to the next relationship because I love companionship and it’s just been really nice to like, slow down time and enjoy exactly where I’m at. And enjoy the not-knowing of what or who might be next, you know?

Martin: That’s such a lovely answer. Because it’ll come.

Musgraves: Yeah, and it’s funny, even in terms of looks, you know, we see pictures of ourselves five years ago and we’re like, “Damn, I wish I would’ve known how great or how in shape I was then. I was so down on myself.”

Rachel: Kacey, we are the youngest we will ever be right now!

Musgraves: Right now! I know. I hate it. I’m just kidding. When I kick off my shows I’m like, “Hey, everybody, we’re existing right now at the same exact time on this crazy planet in the middle of this crazy universe. It’s a miracle that we are here at the same time. And this moment right now, who you’re with tonight, what you’re going through in your life, what I’m going through in my life, is never going to be the same as it is right now. So, let’s just be as present as possible.”

It’s just a nice reminder, like, let’s put our phones down. I mean, you know, take some cute pictures, get the good angles, tag me [laughs]. But let’s be present.

KYIV, Ukraine — Air raid sirens warning of Russian attacks are a constant in Ukraine. Thousands of the alarms have presaged Russian air strikes over the past two years. Some Ukrainians still take cover whenever they can. Others largely ignore them.

One of those sirens began to wail recently as a 28-year-old singer, Diana Oganesyan, was walking late at night in the capital Kyiv.

“I was on my way home from my friend’s birthday. The air siren just caught me in the middle of the street when there were no shelters nearby,” Oganesyan said. “So I was kind of stuck there.”

As a singer, she did what came naturally. She began to harmonize with the siren and recorded herself on her phone. When she posted it on social media, it went viral.

“I didn’t expect it to get so much attention,” she said. “Of course, I’m not happy that [air strikes are] happening, but I’m glad that my voice and the power of social media are bringing attention to the war in Ukraine.”

She says her small act reflects the resilience of Ukrainians.

“No matter what’s happening, life has never stopped,” she explained. “We’re making art. We open businesses. Guys are opening restaurants now, making festivals, drawing flowers around the holes from the bullets. This is what we do.”

When Russia launches major airstrikes, as it has recently, some residents in Kyiv and other large cities with subway systems will go underground and wait out the assault. Occasionally, they spontaneously break into song, as they did here in Kyiv, expressing their love for the city.

In addition to the actual siren, Ukraine’s government created the Air Alert app that offers its own warning on cellphones.

“Attention! Increased air threat in your area! Please proceed to the nearest shelter,” it says.

A Ukrainian government app provides regular updates on Russian air raids.

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So how are Ukrainians coping?

“Previously, we always tried to find a bomb shelter,” said Olexander Velhus, a 27-year-old technology worker.

Like most Ukrainians, he said he took the sirens very seriously when the Russian airstrikes began nationwide with the full-scale invasion in February 2022. That often meant getting out of bed on a freezing night and walking with his girlfriend 100 yards to an office building with a secure basement.

How do they respond now?

“We just accept our fate,” he said with a chuckle.

A billboard in Kyiv directs people to the nearest air raid shelter.

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Russian airstrikes can last for hours, and come most frequently during the night. The initial siren often means Ukraine has detected Russian warplanes, likely armed with long-range missiles, taking off hundreds of miles away, deep inside Russia.

After 15 minutes or so, the phone app usually provides an update. It can be an “all clear” for your area — or an ominous notice saying your region is a target.

Then, another half-hour can pass before you hear window-shaking booms as Ukrainian air defenses launch missiles at the incoming Russian weapons.

“Basically, we wake up when we hear explosions,” said Velhus. “Then we decide whether we want to go to the shelter or not.”

He’s in Kyiv, where air defenses are extremely good. The shootdown rate is over 90%. But other parts of Ukraine are much more vulnerable, particularly in the east and the south, near the front lines.

The singer, Diana Oganesyan, now divides her time between Kyiv and London. She still performs in Ukraine’s capital under her stage name Melancholydi.

“We’re still making music, we’re still making art,” she said. “It doesn’t mean it’s easy. The conditions are worse, but they still do it because we are Ukrainians. That’s what we do.”

How do you know how to dress someone when that person technically doesn’t exist? This inane yet genuine question burned in my mind when I sat down to interview Natasha Newman-Thomas, an award-winning costume designer. Newman-Thomas is the sartorial mastermind behind TV shows including HBO’s “The Idol” and Childish Gambino’s iconic “This Is America” music video (which garnered her a Costume Designers Guild award). Known for her character-driven approach and highly distinctive, vintage-inflected eye, Newman-Thomas explains to me that costume design requires not only a deep understanding, passion, and technical proficiency for clothing design and fashion styling: it also requires an ability to conjure and then investigate a fictionalized character’s psychological makeup. The answer to my question, in short, is that you have to believe in an illusion in order to make it a believable reality.

When you see an actor or musician in a costume designed by Newman-Thomas, the outfit looks authentic in a way that is almost unnoticeable — and this is the point. The selection and styling of the clothes appear so natural and unique to the character that it seems as though they showed up to set wearing it. Her latest subjects are Keanu Reeves and Cameron Diaz in the upcoming film “Outcome,” directed by Jonah Hill. While Newman-Thomas couldn’t get into the details of those characters yet, she shared the peculiar and fascinating details of her art with me and made the case for why flying helicopters is more interesting than sitting through a group critique in art school.

Natasha wears Comme des Garçons Autumn/Winter 2007 dress courtesy of Aralda Vintage, Fendi boots, Gabriella Kiss earrings.

Eugenie Dalland: My Gen-Z cousin had never seen “The Matrix” before, so I recently watched it with her. I realized how crucial all those latex and black leather costumes were to the tone of the film. Why are costumes so important?

Natasha Newman-Thomas: Costumes are the first place where you get to begin storytelling without actually knowing someone. It’s crucial on screen because you want to know as much about a character as you can, instantly, in order to get the viewer involved and on board. If you’re in a dystopian future like “The Matrix,” the costumes pull you in and make you believe in that world and in the story on a surface level.

ED: I’m curious about the nuts and bolts of creating these characters, what you’ve called the “sociological exploration” involved in building them. Who is involved in this process?

NNT: It depends on the project. Sometimes I have one initial conversation with the director, and then they turn the whole thing over to me and let me do my thing. Other times, the director is super involved and we get into the nitty-gritty about every character. And then I’ve been on projects where I do that with the actors, which I like doing because it’s part of the character development for them. It’s super informative for both of us to have those conversations and figure out why a character behaves a certain way, the things that inform who they are, their pathologies.

ED: Shopping is a big part of costume design. What kind of mindset are you in when you’re buying clothes for a character? I imagine it’s sort of meditative.

NNT: It’s definitely meditative! I’m almost trying to put myself in their mental state, and then imagine how they would acquire clothing. Where would they shop? Or would their character only wear hand-me-downs? If so, where would those come from? Someone from their church, a sibling?

ED: I feel like this psychological approach is why your costumes always feel so personalized and unique. It makes the characters more believable as actual individuals. You’re not throwing them into whatever is trendy.

NNT: There’s totally something to be said for capturing a moment in history with [trendy costumes], but typically I strive to make something timeless. I try to make things as unique to the characters as possible.

ED: I’ve always wanted to ask you about the outfit Childish Gambino wears for the “This Is America” music video, which you costumed. It’s very minimal — vintage pants, no shirt, gold chains — but he looks so f—ing cool and moreover, totally natural, authentic. I almost wondered if he showed up to set wearing that look.

NNT: It’s funny you say he looks really natural and embodies the outfit well, because up until 20 minutes before the shoot, Donald [Glover] and I were going back and forth about it. He was like, “I’m not comfortable in that, it inhibits my performance, I just want to wear sweats.” I was like, “no way, sweats are a completely different message, it’s really crucial that these are the pants you wear. If it’s inhibiting your movement, I’ll sew in a gusset.” I was literally sewing a gusset into those pants up until 30 seconds before we shot! I just did another project with Donald a few months ago and he was like, “by the way, you were right about the pants.”

Natasha wears vintage John Galliano 2008 runway dress courtesy of Aralda Vintage. Opposite page: Natasha wears Christian Lacroix jacket, Wolford tights, KNWLS shoes Vivienne Westwood necklace, Gabriella Kiss earrings.

Natasha wears Helmut Lang suit, vintage Frank Zappa shirt from Zappa’s personal collection, Rejina Pyo shoes, Bottega Veneta earrings, Mondo Mondo ring.

ED: What were you aiming for with his costume?

NNT: We referenced some Fela Kuti images, but also the idea of someone who acquires clothes and then really makes them their own. Someone who finds a pair of pants and makes them look sick by styling them in a specific way. That was so important because we didn’t want it to look or feel new, typical, or trendy.

ED: How did you get into costume design?

NNT: I went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago because they didn’t make you choose between fashion and fine art, you could do both, which is what I wanted. But eventually I had the rude awakening that you really couldn’t do both. I took every fashion class I could without committing to being in the fashion design program there. A few years in, I realized I didn’t want to sit through a critique and hear people bulls— about “juxtaposition” ever again. I decided to drop out and move back to L.A. and go to helicopter school to be a pilot.

ED: Wait, what?

NNT: There’s a nonprofit program at the Compton Airport. It’s amazing. I’d love to go back and finish my flight hours and get my license. Anyway, while I was there, an old professor friend of mine from the Art Institute called and said, “I’m moving to L.A. to do costumes on this show, I’d love for you to try assisting me.” My first day on set I was like, “this is literally made for me, it combines all my interests.” The pacing, the creative problem solving, the clothes, the character development, all of it. That was it. Day One. I feel very blessed that I found a job where I can make money and do what I love.

ED: What are some movies that made a strong impression on you in terms of costume design?

NNT: There’s so many. I actually just did a symposium about [Jean Paul] Gaultier’s costumes for “The Fifth Element.” I also love his work on “The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover.” The costume design really blends with the production design, it’s so artful.

ED: What’s an unexpected shopping tip you tell people?

NNT: This is so cheesy: Be clothes minded, not closed minded. [laughter] I love to go into a shopping experience with the idea that you can really style anything to make it interesting. A game I’ll play with my best friend is we’ll send each other pictures of things and ask, “how would you make this cool?” Like “how would you make a pair of Toms cool?” I love a good challenge.

ED: How do you make a pair of Toms cool?

NNT: The way I would do it is to cast a Toms shoe in a block of resin, and then put another Toms shoe on top of it. So it’s a platform shoe with the Toms inside the platform and then the other one on top.

ED: Please make this shoe.

NNT: Our first question when we start anything is what’s not cool right now, what is no one doing, and how can we use that to our advantage? We did an Yves Tumor music video and I was like, “no one is doing indie sleaze right now, I’m going to cover a pair of jeans in the Strokes patches, that’ll be so weird!” Two years later, the Strokes were playing the Celine show. It’s fun to try to get ahead of the cycle. It’s getting harder to do because with the internet, everything moves so much faster now, people just gobble up trends. But it’s creating an interesting position for designers to be forced to come up with new things that no one’s seen before, that aren’t referential. I think it could be really exciting. Fingers crossed.

Hair & Makeup Paige Wishart
Lighting Director David Lopez
Styling Assistants Margaux Solano, Tommy Petroni

Natasha wears Christian Lacroix jacket, Wolford tights, KNWLS shoes Vivienne Westwood necklace, Gabriella Kiss earrings.

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Eugenie Dalland is a writer based in New York. Her essays, profiles and reviews have appeared in the Los Angeles Review of Books, Hyperallergic, BOMB, Cultured Magazine, the Brooklyn Rail and elsewhere. She publishes the arts and culture magazine Riot of Perfume.