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Sterlin Harjo didn't see himself in the TV shows he watched – so he made one : Wild Card with Rachel Martin

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Sterlin Harjo didn't see himself in the TV shows he watched – so he made one : Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Sterlin Harjo says he felt overlooked as a kid because of the lack of mainstream media representation.

Chris Loupos/Courtesy of Sterlin Harjo


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Chris Loupos/Courtesy of Sterlin Harjo


Sterlin Harjo says he felt overlooked as a kid because of the lack of mainstream media representation.

Chris Loupos/Courtesy of Sterlin Harjo

A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin: When I spoke with Sterlin Harjo, he said he grew up never really seeing Native Americans like him on TV. But now, because of the series he created, Reservation Dogs, he says, “No one will ever know what that feels like again.”

Reservation Dogs ran for three seasons on Hulu and it told the story of four Native teenagers living on a reservation in Oklahoma trying to figure out how to navigate their lives after their close friend dies. It’s poignant and hilarious and echoes a lot of Harjo’s own life. He is Seminole and Muscogee and grew up in rural Oklahoma. He studied art and film at the University of Oklahoma and all his work is about the full human experience of Native people in this country.

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Reservation Dogs was nominated for the Emmy for best comedy. Even though Harjo didn’t get that award, he got something better. He got to watch one of his young actors take up the mantle of representation for Native people himself.

D’Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai attends the 2024 Emmy Awards on Monday.

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D’Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai went to the Emmys with a red handprint painted on his face as a reminder of violence against Native women. In addition to that powerful message, Woon-A-Tai told Variety magazine that doing Reservation Dogs taught him “how important it is that we are the ones to tell our stories.”

Harjo did that. He’s inspired a new generation of Native actors, writers and directors to tell their own stories their own way. And it’s why I wanted him to join me for Wild Card.

This Wild Card interview has been edited for length and clarity. Host Rachel Martin asks guests randomly-selected questions from a deck of cards. Tap play above to listen to the full podcast, or read an excerpt below.

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Question 1: When have you felt overlooked?

Sterlin Harjo: I think my whole life. As a native kid, you feel that way because of the lack of seeing yourself in mainstream media. And, you know, Rez Dogs definitely changed that. My kids don’t know what it’s like to not see themselves on screen, and no one will ever know what that feels like again because of the show. So that’s pretty amazing.

You know, you accepted what you got when you were younger. Because it was like, “Oh, we’re the evil bad guys in the Western that say nothing but just scream and kill white women.” But now there’s other examples.

The trailer for season 1 of Reservation Dogs.

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Rachel Martin: Do you remember a moment when you realized, “This is messed up?”

Harjo: I remember seeing a movie called The Seminole Wars or something, and I’m Seminole. My dad called me in to see it and it was a Western and they were all dressed like Lakotas. And at that point, I knew what Seminoles dressed like and I knew that wasn’t what we were. But it was kind of this moment of like, “Well it doesn’t matter. We’re being represented. Sure, let’s just enjoy it,” you know?

But, you know, there’s other good examples as well. One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest was a great example where Will Sampson, who’s from my tribe, plays the sort of mute Indian in it who actually isn’t mute, who’s tricking everyone. So it’s sort of a play on, I think, the stoic Indian who doesn’t talk and is mindless. And then you find out that he’s actually tricking people all along. That was kind of a good, inspirational representation, when I was young.

Question 2: What makes you irrationally defensive?

Harjo: OK, here’s a funny one. Not to throw any race under the bus or anything like that, but it happens to always be an older white woman that does this. I’ll be pushing a cart at Whole Foods. And my kids, you know, they’re kids. They run around and the lady will be pushing a cart fast and the kids run out in front of her and they stop and the woman huffs and puffs and, like, rolls her eyes.

Here’s a thing that I do – I feel like Larry David when I do this – but I point at the woman and say very loudly, “Guys, do you see what you’ve done? You’ve ruined her day. You’ve ruined this woman’s day and she’s never going to recover from it.” And I make sure they can hear me, and they shuffle off or whatever, you know.

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Question 3: How often do you think about death?

Harjo: All the time. Way too much. I was just thinking about the line by the band The Turnpike Troubadours in a song where he says, “Everybody wants to be Hank Williams, but nobody wants to die.” And I think that it is definitely prevalent in all of my work because I think that there were people that died in my life when I was young that had a great impact on me that I just couldn’t figure out. I couldn’t figure out the mystery of that. I couldn’t figure out where they go. And what is this that I signed up for? And I’ve been exploring that ever since. Where’d they go?

Martin: One thing I appreciate about Reservation Dogs, is that they go to a lot of funerals. Like, I don’t think people go to enough funerals.

Harjo: I don’t think they do either. I grew up at them. I think they’re important. And it was one of the best times because I think that people are very honest with each other after someone dies. People that would normally not say, “I love you,” say I love you. There’s people in my family that maybe I had a falling out with or was not talking to for a moment, and you know, calling them might not work, but at a funeral, we’ll talk again. And I’ve seen that happen a lot with family coming together at funerals and sort of throwing out the past and moving forward.

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No matter what happens at the Oscars, Delroy Lindo embraces ‘the joy of this moment’

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No matter what happens at the Oscars, Delroy Lindo embraces ‘the joy of this moment’

Delroy Lindo is nominated for an Oscar for best supporting actor for his role in Sinners.

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Over the course of his decades-long career on stage and in Hollywood, Sinners actor Delroy Lindo has experienced firsthand what he calls the “disappointments, the vicissitudes of the industry.”

On Feb. 22, at the BAFTA awards in London, Lindo and Sinners co-star Michael B. Jordan were the first presenters of the evening when a man with Tourette syndrome shouted a racial slur.

Initially, Lindo says, he questioned if he had heard correctly. Then, he says, he adjusted his glasses and read the teleprompter: “I processed in the way that I process, in a nanosecond. Mike did similarly, and we went on and did our jobs.”

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Lindo describes the BAFTA incident as “something that started out negatively becoming a positive.” A week after the BAFTAs, he appeared with Sinners director Ryan Coogler at the NAACP awards.

“The fact that I could stand there in a room predominantly of our people …  and feel safe, feel loved, feel supported,” he says. “I just wanted to officially, formally say thank you to our people and to all of the people who have supported us as a result of that event, that incident.”

Sinners is a haunting vampire thriller about twins (both played by Jordan) who open a juke joint in 1930s Mississippi. The film has been nominated for a record 16 Academy Awards, including best actor for Jordan and best supporting actor for Lindo, who plays a blues musician named Delta Slim.

This is Lindo’s first Oscar nomination; five years ago, many felt his performance in the Spike Lee film Da 5 Bloods deserved recognition from the Academy. When that didn’t happen, Lindo admits he was disappointed, but he had no choice but to move on.

“I have never taken my marbles and gone home,” he says. “And I want to claim that I will not do that now. I will continue working.”

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Interview highlights

On his preparation to play Delta Slim

Various people have mentioned … [that] my presence reminds them of an uncle or their grandfather, somebody that they knew from their families, and that is a huge compliment, but more importantly than being a compliment, it’s an affirmation for the work. My preparation for this started with Ryan sending me two books, Blues People, by Amiri Baraka — who was [known as] LeRoi Jones when he wrote the book — and Deep Blues, by Robert Palmer.

DELROY LINDO as Delta Slim in Warner Bros. Pictures’ “SINNERS,” a Warner Bros. Pictures release. Source:

Lindo, shown above in his role as Delta Slim, says director Ryan Coogler “created a sacred space for all of us” on the Sinners set.

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In reading those books and then referencing those books, continuing to reference those throughout production, I was given an entrée into the worlds, the lifestyles of these musicians. There’s a certain kind of itinerant quality that they moved around a lot. The constant for them is their music, so that there is this deep-seated connection to the music.

On being Oscar-nominated for the first time — and thinking about other Black actors, including Halle Berry and Lou Gossett Jr., who had trouble getting work after their wins

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I will not view it as a curse, because I am claiming the victory in this process, no matter what happens. … In terms of this moment, I absolutely am claiming, as much as I can, the joy of this moment. I’m not saying I don’t have trepidation, I do. It’s the reason I was not listening to the broadcast this year when the nominations were announced. I did not want to set myself up. But I’m … attempting as much as I can to fortify myself and know in my heart that I will continue working as an actor. I absolutely will.

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On being “othered” as a child because of his race

Because my mom was studying to be a nurse they would not allow her to have an infant child with her on campus, so as a result of that, I was sent to live with a white family in a white working class area of London. … I was loved, I was cared for, but as a result of living with this family in this all-white neighborhood, I went to an all-white elementary or primary school. And I was literally the only Black child in an all-white school.

So one afternoon, after school had ended, I was playing with one of my playmates … And at a certain point in our game, a car pulls up, and this kid that I was playing with goes over to the car and has a very short conversation with whomever was in the car, which I now know was his parent, his father. He comes back and he … says, “I can’t play with you.” And that was the end of the game.

On the experience of writing his forthcoming memoir

It’s been healing, actually. I’m not denying that it has opened me up. I’ve been compelled to scrutinize myself. I’m using that word very advisedly, “scrutinized.” It’s a scrutiny, it’s an examination of oneself. But in my case, because a very, very, very significant part of what I’m writing has to do with re-examining my relationship with my mom. And so my mom is a protagonist in my memoir. I’m told by my editor and by my publisher that one of the attractions to what I’m writing is that it is not a classic “celebrity memoir.” I am examining history. I’m examining culture. I’m looking at certain passages of history through the lens of the “Windrush” experience [of Caribbean immigrants who came to the UK after World War II].

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On getting a masters degree to help him write his mother’s story

My mom deserved it. My mom is deserving. And not only is my mom deserving, by extension, all the people of the Windrush generation are deserving. Stories about Windrush are not part of the global cultural lexicon commensurate with its impact. The people of Windrush changed the definition of what it means to be British. There are all these Black and brown people, theretofore members of what used to be called the British Commonwealth. And they were invited by the British government to come to England, the United Kingdom, to help rebuild the United Kingdom in the aftermath of the destruction of World War II. My mom was part of that movement. They helped rebuild construction, construction industry, transportation industry, critically, the health industry, the NHS, the National Health Service. My mom is a nurse.

The reason that I went into NYU was because my original intention was to write a screenplay about my mom. I wanted to write a screenplay about my mom because I looked around and I thought: Where are the feature films that have as protagonist a Caribbean female, a Black female, where are they? … I wanted to address that, I wanted to correct that, what I see as being an imbalance.

Ann Marie Baldonado and Susan Nyakundi produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.

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If you loved ‘Sinners,’ here’s what to watch next

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If you loved ‘Sinners,’ here’s what to watch next

Michael B. Jordan plays twin brothers Smoke and Stack in Sinners.

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What to watch if you loved…

Ryan Coogler’s supernatural horror stars Michael B. Jordan playing twin brothers who open a 1930s juke joint in Mississippi. Opening night does not go as planned when vampires appear outside. “In a straightforward metaphor for all the ways Black culture has been co-opted by whiteness, the raucous pleasures and sonic beauty of the juke joint attract the interest of a trio of demons … they wish to literally leech off of the talents and energy of Black folks,” writes critic Aisha Harris. The film made history with a record 16 Academy Award nominations.

We asked our NPR audience: What movie would you recommend to someone who loved Sinners? Here’s what you told us:

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Near Dark (1987)
Directed by Kathryn Bigelow; starring Adrian Pasdar, Jenny Wright, Lance Henriksen
If you want another cool vampire movie with Western kind of vibes, check out Kathryn Bigelow’s Near Dark — super underseen and kind of hard to find, but really gritty and sexy and another very different take on what you might think is a genre that had been wrung dry. – Maggie Grossman, Chicago, Ill.

30 Days of Night (2007)
Directed by David Slade; starring Josh Hartnett, Melissa George, Danny Huston
It follows a group of people in a small Alaskan town as they struggle to survive an invasion of vampires who have taken advantage of the month-long absence of the sun. Both this and Sinners revolve around a vampire takeover and the people’s fight to outlast the “night.” – Nathan Strzelewicz, DeWitt, Mich.

The Wailing (2016)
Directed by Na Hong-jin; starring Kwak Do-won, Hwang Jung-min, Chun Woo-hee, Jun Kunimura
In this South Korean supernatural horror film, a mysterious illness causes people in a quiet rural village to become violent and murderous. A local police officer investigates while trying to save his daughter, who begins showing the same disturbing symptoms. The film blends folk horror, religion, and psychological dread, exploring themes of faith, evil, and moral weakness. Like Sinners, it centers on a supernatural force corrupting a close-knit community, builds slow-burning tension, and examines spiritual conflict and human frailty. – Amy Merke, Bronx, N.Y.

Fréwaka (2024)
Directed by Aislinn Clarke; starring Bríd Ní Neachtain, Clare Monnelly, Aleksandra Bystrzhitskaya
In this Irish folk horror film, a home care worker, Shoo, is assigned to stay with an elderly woman who’s convinced she’s under siege by malevolent fairies. Like Sinners, Fréwaka blends folk traditions and social commentary with horror. The social failures Shoo copes with (untreated mental health issues, religious abuse) are just as frightening as the supernatural forces. – Kerrin Smith, Baltimore, Md.

And a bonus pick from our critic:

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Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom (2020)
Directed by George C. Wolfe; starring Viola Davis, Chadwick Boseman, Glynn Turman
This is an adaptation of August Wilson’s play about a legendary blues singer (Viola Davis) muscling through a recording session with white producers who want to control her music. Chadwick Boseman’s blistering in his final role. – Bob Mondello, NPR movie critic

Carly Rubin and Ivy Buck contributed to this project. It was edited by Clare Lombardo.

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