Lifestyle
They're about to turn 30. Their views on ambition, love and 'hotness' feel revolutionary
One night when I was out at a bar, reporting for a story, I struck up a conversation with a comedian who was in her early 30s. I’d recently turned 29 and I expressed that I was feeling anxious about my impending milestone birthday.
“The worst part about 30 is 29,” she told me in a playful yet reassuring tone. It was a joke that her comedian friend Kevin had shared with her.
The words felt true. Since my 29th birthday, I kept thinking about all of the things I hadn’t achieved yet. I hadn’t made the Forbes 30 under 30 list, I had no prospects for a husband, the sheer thought of having a pet (let alone a child) made my stomach turn and the only valuables I owned were my iPhone and my car.
Arguably, turning any age can lead someone to think about all they have yet to accomplish, but there’s something distinct about being 29 years old. It exists right there on the brink between your 20s, when you’re expected and encouraged to make many mistakes, and your 30s, when society suddenly expects you to have it all figured out because you’re suddenly an actual adult. So if you’ve reached the final lap of your 20s and you haven’t crossed off multiple culturally defined boxes — get married, have a family, buy a house and have a thriving career, etc. — it’s easy to feel left behind.
Eventually, I had a mental shift. I figured that it was unlikely that I’d accomplish all of these things within a year, so I decided to focus on making 29 the most memorable year of my 20s — a last hurrah, if you will — and to set myself up for success in my 30s. I realized that I didn’t need to rush to check milestones off my bucket list just because I was turning 30. I still had time and the self-imposed pressure was neither helpful nor necessary. I just needed to be present.
I knew I couldn’t be the only person who had big feelings about turning 30, so I started talking to other 29-year-olds in L.A. about their anxieties, fears and hopes for crossing over the 30 bridge. While some said their life doesn’t mirror what they thought it would look like at this age, many are more hopeful than anxious about what’s to come. This story features six Angelenos on the brink of 30, photographed in their homes around L.A. We also had a birthday photo shoot at iconic entertainment center Chuck E. Cheese. It’s a nostalgic place for people my age — I had my very first birthday party there so it felt only right to return.
As I get ready to celebrate my 30th birthday, I’m feeling excited about what feels like a new chapter in my life. Reflecting on my 20s, I dedicate Cleo Sol’s song “Rose in the Dark” to this revelatory whirlwind of a decade. The next one will be even sweeter.
Responses have been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Anabel Inigo at home in Mid-City.
Occupation: Assistant to TV producers
How are you feeling about turning 30?
I always think about if my 13-year-old self would be proud of me and how 30 felt so important to me. By 30, I wanted to have made my first film, be a millionaire, have made the [Forbes] 30 under 30 list, but I’ve done none of those things. At my job as an assistant — with an MFA I thought I needed — I’m cleaning a coffee pot and I’m so worried that all of my decades will just never bring what I expect. I know you learn more as you grow up but what if all you learn is that you shouldn’t be ambitious? And what does that mean when that’s always been such a big part of who you are?
Have other people placed any expectations on you because you are turning 30?
My mother and my grandparents always wanted big things for me. I am a first-generation college student from a family where my generation should be the ones that “make it.” What does that mean when I haven’t?
“I’m so worried that all of my decades will just never bring what I expect. I know you learn more as you grow up but what if all you learn is that you shouldn’t be ambitious?”
— Anabel Inigo
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
Being an assistant, following my dream. I have two roommates, living in a city I always wanted to live in, but still in so many ways I’m unfulfilled.
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
I want my 30s to be the years where what I wanted in my 20s comes true. I was in grad school until I was 26, so this will be the first decade I’m not in school and I can just focus on myself. For my 30th birthday, I plan to go on a cruise, something I did when I was 15. Maybe I’m starting a tradition?
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“Gotta Get Through This” by Daniel Bedingfield.
Ryan Kageyama poses for a portrait in his home in Palms, Los Angeles.
Occupation: Works in tech operations
How are you feeling about turning 30?
Turning 30 is the inevitable milestone often used as a baseline for other life achievements such as getting married, having kids and becoming a homeowner. I am nowhere near accomplishing any of those milestones as I am a bachelor living on the westside of L.A. Yet, I don’t feel any sense of urgency to settle to pursue any specific life goals since most of my peers are in a similar situation. I love my job and the flexibility that comes with it and I have an active social life on the weekends. I am planning for the future without sacrificing too much in the present, which makes me feel at ease with the impending 30th birth year. My next step is finding out where I want to be for my 30s and to lay roots for the rest of my life, but I am not too concerned about it right now.
When I turned 20, I thought my life would be vastly different at the time I turned 30. I naively predicted based on societal norms and associated my own happiness to these details. Now that I’m about to turn 30 without a partner, kids or a home, I don’t feel disappointed nor do I feel unhappy. Everyone has their own journey. It’s yours to make the most of it.
Have other people placed any expectations on you because you are turning 30?
One of my siblings [recently] got married and my other sibling is on the journey to be married. Someone at my brother’s wedding asked me “Which sibling are you? The doctor or the single one?” This type of remark would [normally] bother me, but now I’ve given it a good laugh and moved on. The term “Funcle” is starting to sound nice to me and I will certainly embrace it.
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
I’ve spent the last year of my 20s making meaningful connections with new faces and reconnecting with old friends. I started saying yes to more things like run clubs and random weekday outings. I worked on personal projects like stand-up comedy, podcasting and community organizing through coffee and music. Honestly, this has been one of the best years of my life and I’m still excited for the next decade.
“The term ‘Funcle’ is starting to sound nice to me.”
— Ryan Kageyama
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
I imagine my 30s evolving into my self-care era. My body is catching up to me, and I think it’s about time to put my body and mental well-being before anything else. My knees won’t last forever but I will be damned if I didn’t try get the most of out them while I still can. I hope to finally buy a home in a location where I can set my roots. I want to get a dog too!
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“adore u” by Fred Again.
Nat Agoos at home in Mount Washington.
Occupation: Works at a nonprofit
How are you feeling about turning 30?
The overall feeling is appreciative. Every year I turn another year older, I become more and more aware of time, of the rapidity of life and of all the things I want to do before it’s all over. I wish we could live until, like, 300. And when I zoom in a bit more, I almost already feel nostalgia for the past nine years, which as we all know, are hectic ones. You exit your teens, the curtains to “adulthood” kind of suddenly whip open, and as they do (and as your brain is verging on becoming fully developed), you must, not so graciously, find your way. The tumult feels (slightly) less shaky and my path onward, after endless trial and error, feels just settled enough to garner a sense of confidence I definitely did not have in my early 20s.
But while I am feeling a greater sense of what I want and what I don’t want, I am simultaneously entering this middle space, between Phase 1 of adulthood and Phase 2 of adulthood, which has introduced a new type of uncertainty I haven’t met yet. It’s like, with this greater sense of who I am, who I want to be, the next natural step is to go forth with that knowledge, full steam ahead. To settle down. But as I exit my 20s I can almost feel them pulling me back, yelling from a distance, “Don’t go yet! There’s still so much chaos to impart on you!” The idea of “settling down” is a scary one.
Lastly, I feel young. More young than I’ve ever felt, even though I am older than I have ever been. I’m at this interesting age where while I still have [so] much to learn, I feel like I understand my life in a way I haven’t before. As my awareness of life increases, so does my awareness of how young I am (not to brag). As a kid/young adult, that thought doesn’t really cross your mind. I’d like to savor every last moment of it.
Have other people placed expectations on you because of your age?
If they have, I’ve been too busy imparting my own expectations on myself to notice!
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
As I mentioned before, I am feeling equally pulled by the uncertainty of my 20s, and the “settled-ness” of my 30s. I plan to embrace being yanked, to absorb as much as I can, to bring as much of my free spirit and curiosity that early adulthood hands out at no charge into my next chapter, and to take things slow.
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
I hope for a new type of chaos. A chaos where I get to explore the parts of me that I discovered in my 20s, giving space for missteps or unforeseen results. To harness my new sense of control in a way that doesn’t require me to 100% be in control. And to not to forget to continue to question, no matter how positive I may feel.
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“Praise You” by Fatboy Slim.
Dave Harris at home in Los Feliz.
Occupation: TV, film and theater writer
How are you feeling about turning 30?
Hot. I believe that everyone just gets hotter with every year of life and each birthday continues this trend. So actually more than anything, I just believe that I and everyone I love will get hotter and hotter by the year, by the day even. I don’t just mean aesthetically (though I do); I mean energetically. If this was the ascendant glow-up of the 20s, then my God the 30s, it’s full of stars.
Have other people placed any expectations on you because you are turning 30?
Society is generally bad at perceiving how old Black people are. Also all the men in my family lose their hair and grow beards at 25. So I’m often working in rooms where people assume I’m older than I am, and I let them. And because of life circumstances, I’ve had to operate like someone older than I am since elementary school. So in a way, turning 30 actually feels like I’ve been here for some time and now I just get to claim it.
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
I’m working a lot and cooking for the people I love. I’m dancing more. I’m chasing spontaneity. I’m finding new things to love. It’s not some revelation. There are things I didn’t know I could love until I had a stable income. Like what the hell, if sixth-grade me who only had a microwave and mini-fridge at home could watch 29-year-old me make agnolotti del plin on a Tuesday?
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
Because of generational instability, family hasn’t reliably been a part of my life and the trajectory of my life has often pulled me far away from the place I’m from (Philly). I’ve been proud of that because I’ve gotten to do and see so much more than what I grew up with. I travel, I work from a place of desire and not from a place of fear, I have a community of friends that I can’t imagine life without, and still, more than any other year, I find myself craving the irreplicable intimacy of family. This can be a lonely desire because so many people in my life have economically and emotionally stable families, so I hold this space tenderly. And yet, I hope that I’ll have the means to help carry my family with me through my 30s. Whereas my 20s were marked by a feeling of chasing, I think my 30s might be marked by a feeling of return. It’s hard to heal familial wounds when your family is living paycheck to paycheck.
“There are things I didn’t know I could love until I had a stable income. Like what the hell, if sixth grade me who only had a microwave and mini-fridge at home could watch 29-year-old me make agnolotti del plin on a Tuesday?”
— Dave Harris
I feel like I am a part of a generation of overachieving Black artists who maybe did not grow up with a lot and were taught that “Education is the key!” and through education and institutions, we toiled through that upwards mobility ladder. The 20s are a decade of mandated change. Turning 21, finishing college, grad school, first apartments, movement. If every parent wants their child to achieve a better life than they did, then I accomplished that by simply getting into college. Even though my career is in a scarcity-based industry, I feel I’ve been on a particular path with particular goals. In some ways, my 20s were both astronomical and predictable. My whole life I’ve defined myself by an idea of success, and every year that definition has become more and more uniquely my own. There has been such freedom in that. I’m so happy with my 20s. I want my 30s to be even happier. I’m most excited for the things I haven’t imagined yet. I can’t believe that I sound this optimistic because I don’t think of myself as an optimistic person, but there are so many other ways my life could have turned out.
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“Back in my Bag” by Rapsody
Holly Giang at home in Los Feliz.
Occupation: Works in product strategy
How are you feeling about turning 30?
I’m thrilled; I’m confident that my 30s will be my most fulfilling decade yet. My 20s were full of rich experiences, and it was full of hustle, vulnerability and decision paralysis. As I enter my 30s, I feel extremely curious, energized and at peace. I believe I now have the luxury of time to savor the present and the resources to try out the things my kid self wanted to do.
Have other people placed any expectations on you because you are turning 30?
Yes. I’ve certainly been fielding more questions from family (and strangers) about marriage and children. Societal expectations undeniably place a heavy burden on women in the workplace and at home. Having clarity and conviction (and therapy!) has allowed me to set and manage these expectations with my family since my early 20s, which has helped me to navigate the pressure and remain unbothered.
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
After navigating three stressful life events, including ending my long-term partnership and moving to L.A. on the same day, I’m focused on reprioritizing my life and being more self-serving. I want to make sense of this city, to plant roots and build community. My food expeditions via bike and Metro have served as the gateway to feeling more connected to different parts of the city, and I’ve met plenty of kind Angelenos along the way.
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
Based on what I learned in my 20s, I’m hoping my 30s will be marked by a renewed sense of confidence, independence, growth and adventure.
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“Unwritten” by Natasha Bedingfield.
Kidist Mekonnen at home in Inglewood.
Occupation: Senior associate project manager
How are you feeling about turning 30?
If you asked me a couple years ago, I would have told you that I was terrified. But now as I get closer, I’m much less anxious. Part of that being that it’s a blessing to grow older, wiser and the lessons of my 20s will help me step into my 30s.
Have other people placed any expectations on you because you are turning 30?
Absolutely. I know most people have good intentions when asking about different milestones you need to hit at a certain age, but I think there is often a lack of acknowledgment of how it may make us feel. Social media already spews out enough expectations on us, so it can get even more overwhelming when it comes directly from family and friends. I constantly remind myself of the many milestones we can celebrate for others that are not just the typical ones. To feel loved and celebrated at any stage and moment in life feels amazing and I hope to do that for all my friends.
How are you spending the last year of your 20s?
My biggest regret was not traveling aboard in college and now as a real adult I’m trying to play catch-up with my travels. I’m hoping I can spend more time this year exploring! I have yet to take my first real solo trip internationally, so I’m looking forward to planning that. I also want to spend a lot of time outdoors and prioritizing my health/fitness. I’m also allowing myself to feel all things I need to feel. I’m so grateful for God and what He’s been able to show me this last half of my 20s.
What do you hope your 30s will look and feel like?
I pray my 30s will be a lot of time spent laughing, loving on others and being kind to myself. There’s so much I can say I want to plan for now, but being in my last year of my 20s, I just want to be in the moment and be around my community.
What song would you like to dedicate to your 20s?
“Beautiful” by Mali Music.
Lifestyle
A glimpse of Iran, through the eyes of its artists and journalists
Understanding one of the world’s oldest civilizations can’t be achieved through a single film or book. But recent works of literature, journalism, music and film by Iranians are a powerful starting point. Clockwise from top left: The Seed of the Sacred Fig, For The Sun After Long Nights, Cutting Through Rocks, It Was Just an Accident, Martyr!, and Kayhan Kalhor.
NEON; Pantheon; Gandom Films Production; NEON; Vintage; Julia Gunther for NPR
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NEON; Pantheon; Gandom Films Production; NEON; Vintage; Julia Gunther for NPR
Few Americans have had the opportunity to visit or explore Iran, an ethnically diverse nation of over 90 million people which has been effectively shut off from the United States since the Iranian revolution of 1979. Now, with a U.S. and Israeli-led war on Iran underway, the ideas, feelings and opinions of Iranians may feel less accessible. However, some recent books, films and music made by artists and journalists in Iran and from the Iranian diaspora can help illuminate this ancient culture and its contemporary politics.
These suggestions are just a starting point, of course — with an emphasis on recent works made by Iranians themselves, rather than by outsiders looking in.
Books
For the Sun After Long Nights: The Story of Iran’s Women-Led Uprising, by Fatemeh Jamalpour and Nilo Tabrizy
There are quite a few excellent titles that deconstruct the history of Iran from ancient times through the rule of the Pahlavi Dynasty to the Iranian Revolution. But there are far fewer books that help us understand the Iran of 2026 and the people who live there now. One standout is the National Book Award-nominated For the Sun After Long Nights: The Story of Iran’s Women-Led Uprising by journalists Fatemeh Jamalpour and Nilo Tabrizy, which chronicles — almost in real time — the Woman, Life, Freedom movement that began in 2022, during which Jamalpour was working secretly as a journalist in Tehran. In 2024-25, Jamalpour (who is now living in exile in the U.S.) and I spent a year together at the University of Michigan’s Knight-Wallace fellowship for journalists; her insights into contemporary Iran are among the best.
Gold, by Rumi, translated by Haleh Liza Gafori
If Americans are familiar with Persian poetry at all, it may well be through popular “translations” of the 13th-century Sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi done by the late American poet Coleman Barks, who neither read nor spoke the Persian language and detached the works of Molana (“our master”), as Iranians call him, of references to Islam. (Instead, Barks “interpreted” preexisting English translations.)
In 2022, Iranian-American poet, performance artist and singer Haleh Liza Gafori offered the first volume of a corrective, in the form of fresh Rumi translations that are at once accessible, deeply contemplative and immediate. A second volume, Water, followed last year.
Martyr!: A Novel, by Kaveh Akbar
This 2024 debut novel by Kaveh Akbar, the poetry editor at The Nation, is an unflinching tour-de-force bursting with wit and insight into the complications of diaspora, the nature of identity in a post-War on Terror world and the inter-generational impact of the 1979 Revolution on Iranians. The protagonist, the Iran-born but American-raised Cyrus Shams, has struggled with addiction, depression and insomnia his whole life, and is trying his best to make sense of a world at the “intersection of Iranian-ness and Midwestern-ness.” As with so many other of the titles here, fiction and fact are woven together: the story centers around the true story of the U.S. downing an Iranian passenger plane in 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war.
The Stationery Shop: A Novel, by Marjan Kamali
Marjan Kamali’s 2019 love story is the wistful tale of a young woman named Roya and an idealistic activist named Bahman, who meet cute in a Tehran store in the 1950s, but whose planned marriage falls apart due to turmoil both familial and political, as Iran’s democratically elected government falls in a U.S.-British lead coup that ends with the installation of the Shah. Roya flees to the U.S. for a fresh start, but the two reunite in 2013, wondering: what if life had spun out in a different direction?
Movies
Coup 53
This 2019 documentary directed by Iranian film maker Taghi Amirani and co-written by Walter Murch recounts Operation Ajax, in which the CIA and Britain’s MI6 engineered the removal of Mohammad Mossadegh, Iran’s democratically elected prime minister, and installed a friendly ruler, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, in his place. (The Shah was ousted in the 1979 revolution.) As Fresh Air critic John Powers noted in his review, “What emerges first is the backstory of the coup, which like so much in the modern Middle East is predicated on oil. Shortly after the black gold was discovered in early 20th century Iran, a British oil company now known as BP locked up a sweetheart deal for its exploitation. Iran not only got a mere 16% of the oil money before British taxes, but the books were kept by the British — and the Iranians weren’t allowed to see them.”
YouTube
Cutting Through Rocks
Sara Khaki and Mohammadreza Eyni’s film Cutting Through Rocks is up for an Oscar this season after premiering at the 2025 Sundance Film Festival. This inspiring documentary follows Sara Shahverdi — a divorced, childless motorcyclist — as she campaigns to become the first woman elected to the city council of her remote village, and who dreams of teaching girls to ride and to end child marriage.
YouTube
It Was Just an Accident
The latest film from acclaimed director Jafar Panahi — who has officially been banned from making films in Iran — is 2025’s It Was Just an Accident. Panahi, who has been jailed multiple times for his work and was recently sentenced again in absentia, has said in interviews that his inspiration for this brutal – and shockingly funny – thriller was people he met while in prison: an auto mechanic named Vahid finds himself face-to-face with the man who he is fairly certain was his torturer in jail, and eventually assembles other victims to try to confirm his suspicions. Fresh Air critic Justin Chang called It Was Just an Accident “a blast of pure anti-authoritarian rage.”
YouTube
The Seed of the Sacred Fig
This 2024 thriller — shot in secret by director Mohammad Rasoulof — centers on a family whose father, Iman, is appointed as an investigating judge in Tehran. But it soon becomes clear that his job has nothing to do with actually investigating. Iman, his wife, and two daughters come to suspect each other in our age of mass surveillance, as the city streets below erupt into the real-life Woman, Life, Freedom protests.
YouTube
Music
Kayhan Kalhor
One of the primary ambassadors of Persian classical music has been the composer and kamancheh (an Iranian bowed-instrument) virtuoso Kayhan Kalhor. Although music, like poetry, has been central to Iranian culture for centuries, all kinds of music were initially banned after the 1979 revolution. Since then, however, Iranian classical musicians have ridden many looping cycles of official condemnation, grudging tolerance, censorship and attempts at co-option by the regime.
Despite those difficulties, Kalhor has built a thriving career both inside Iran and abroad, including winning a Grammy Award as part of the Silkroad Ensemble and earning three nominations as a solo artist. Back in 2012, I invited him to our Tiny Desk to perform solo. “Didn’t know I could have goosebumps for 12 minutes straight,” a YouTube commenter recently wrote; I couldn’t put it any better.
YouTube
Saeid Shanbehzadeh
Among Iran’s 92 million people, about 40% of come from various ethnic minorities, including Azeris, Kurds and Armenians among many others. One of the most fascinating communities is the Afro-Iranians in the Iranian south, many of whose ancestors were brought to Iran as enslaved people from east Africa. Multi-instrumentalist and dancer Saeid Shanbehzadeh, who traces his ancestry to Zanzibar, celebrates that heritage with his band, and specializes in the Iranian bagpipe and percussion.
YouTube
The underground metal scene
Despite ongoing restrictions on music — including the continued ban on female singers performing in mixed-gender public settings — Iran is home to a thriving underground scene for metal and punk. Though it’s fictional, Farbod Ardebelli’s 2020 short drama Forbidden to See Us Scream in Tehran — which was secretly filmed in Tehran, with the director giving instructions remotely from the U.S. via WhatsApp — gives a flavor of that real-life scene and the dangers those artists face.
YouTube
Lifestyle
Sen. Thom Tillis Rips Kristi Noem, Compares ICE Killings To Dog She Killed
Sen. Tillis To Kristi Noem
ICE Killings Are Like Dog You Killed
Published
Fireworks on Capitol Hill … Sen. Thom Tillis ripped into DHS Secretary Kristi Noem during a congressional hearing … comparing American citizens killed by immigration agents to a dog she killed.
Check out the video … the Republican Senator from North Carolina says Noem has shown terrible leadership and decision-making as Trump‘s DHS Secretary.
AP
Tillis says the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minneapolis by ICE and Border Patrol remind him of a passage from Noem’s book … where she recalls killing a dog she brought on a hunting trip.
Noem said the 14-month-old dog, Cricket, was misbehaving … so she led the dog to a gravel pit and shot her.
X/@DHSgov
Sen. Tillis told her straight up … “Those are bad decisions made in the heat of the moment. Not unlike what happened up in Minneapolis. We’re an exceptional nation, and one of the reasons we’re exceptional is we expect exceptional leadership. And you’ve demonstrated anything but that.”
Lifestyle
For filmmaker Chloé Zhao, creative life was never linear
In 2021, Zhao made history as the first woman of color to win the best director Oscar for her film Nomadland. Her Oscar-nominated drama Hamnet has made $70 million worldwide.
Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
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Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
It took a very special kind of spirit to make Hamnet, which is nominated for best picture at this year’s Academy Awards. Chloé Zhao brought her uniquely sensitive, mind-body approach to directing the fictionalized story about how William Shakespeare was inspired to write his masterpiece Hamlet.
Zhao adapted the screenplay from a novel by Maggie O’Farrell, and for directing the film, she’s now nominated for an Oscar. She could make history by becoming the first woman to win the best director award more than once.
Zhao says she believes in ceremonies and rituals, in setting an intention, a mood, a vibration for any event. Before Hamnet premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival last year, she led the audience in a guided meditation and a breathing exercise.

Zhao also likes to loosen up, like she did at a screening of Hamnet in Los Angeles last month, when she got the audience to get up and dance with her to a Rihanna song.
She, her cast and crew had regular dance parties during the production of Hamnet. So for our NPR photo shoot and interview at a Beverly Hills hotel, I invited her to share some music from her playlist. She chose a track she described as “drones and tones.”
Our photographer captured her in her filmy white gown, peeking contemplatively from behind the filmy white curtains of a balcony at the Waldorf Astoria.
Zhao says she believes in ceremonies and rituals, and makes them a part of her filmmaking process.
Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
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Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
Then Zhao and I sat down to talk.
“I had a dream that we were doing this interview,” I told her. “And it started with a photo shoot, and there was a glass globe –”
“No way!” she gasped.
It so happens that on the desk next to us, was a small glass globe — perhaps a paperweight.
I told her that in my dream, she was looking through the globe at some projected images. “We were having fun and it was like we didn’t want it to stop,” I said.
“Oh, well, me and the globe and the lights on the wall: they’re all part of you,” Zhao said. “They’re your inner crystal ball, your inner Chloé.”
“Inner Chloé?” I asked. “What is the inner Chloé like?”
“I don’t know, you tell me,” she said. “Humbly, from my lineage and what I studied is that everything in a dream is a part of our own psyche.”
Dreams and symbols are very much a part of Zhao’s approach to filmmaking, which she describes as a magical and communal experience. She said it’s all part of her directing style.
Chloé Zhao used painting and dance to connect with actors on the set of her latest film Hamnet.
Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
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Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
“If you’re captain of any ship, you are not just giving instructions; people are also looking to you energetically as well,” she explained. “Whether it’s calmness, it’s groundedness, it’s feeling safe: then everyone else is going to tune to you.” Zhao says it has taken many years to get to this awareness. Her own journey began 43 years ago in Beijing, where she was born. She moved to the U.S. as a teen, and studied film at New York University where Spike Lee was one of her teachers. She continued honing her craft at the Sundance Institute labs — along with her friend Ryan Coogler and other indie filmmakers.
Over the years, Zhao’s film catalogue has been eclectic — from her indie debut Songs My Brothers Taught Me, set on a Lakota Sioux reservation, to the big-budget Marvel superhero movie Eternals. She got her first best director Oscar in 2021 for the best picture winner Nomadland. Next up is a reboot of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
“A creative life,” she notes, “is not a linear experience for me.”
Zhao still lingers over the making of Hamnet, a very emotional story about the death of a child. During the production, Zhao says she used somatic and tantric exercises and rituals to open and close shooting days.
She also invited her lead actors Paul Mescal and Jessie Buckley to help her set the mood on set. They danced, they painted, they meditated together.
“She created an atmosphere where everybody who chose to step in to tell this story was there for a reason that was deeply within them,” actress Jessie Buckley told me.

Buckley is a leading contender for this year’s best actress Oscar. She said that to prepare for her very intense role as William Shakespeare’s wife, Zhao asked her to write down her dreams “as a kind of access point, to gently stir the waters of where I was feeling.”
Buckley sent Zhao her writings, and also music she felt was “a tone and texture of that essence.”
That kind of became the ritual of how they worked together, Buckley said. “And not just the cast were moving together, but the crew were and the camera was really creating dynamics and a collective unconscious.”
Filmmaker and Hamnet producer Steven Spielberg calls Zhao’s empathy her superpower.
Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
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Bethany Mollenkof for NPR
That was incredibly useful for creating Hamnet — a story about communal grief. Steven Spielberg, who co-produced the film, called Zhao’s empathy her superpower.
“In every glance, in every pause and every touch, in every tear, in every single moment of this film, every choice that Chloé made is evidence of her fearlessness,” Spielberg said when awarding Zhao a Directors Guild of America award. “In Hamnet, Chloé also shows us that there can be life after grief.”
Zhao says it took five years and a midlife crisis for her to develop the emotional tools she used to make Hamnet.
“I hope it could give people a two-hour little ceremony,” she told me. “And in the end, I hope that a point of contact can be made. That means that there’s a heart opening. But it will be painful, right? Because when your heart opens, you feel all the things you usually don’t feel. And then a catharsis can emerge.”
As our interview time came to a close, I told Zhao I have my own little ritual at the end of every interview; I record a few minutes of room tone, the ambient sound of the space we’re in. It’s for production purposes, to smooth out the audio.
Zhao knew just what I meant. She told me a story about her late friend Michael “Wolf” Snyder who was her sound recordist for Nomadland. “He said to me, ‘I don’t always need it, but just so you know, I am going to watch you. And when I tell that you are a little frazzled, I’m going to ask for a room tone … just to give you space.’” she recalled. “‘And if you feel like you need the silence space, you just look at me, nod. I’ll come ask for a room tone.’”
I closed our interview ceremony with that moment of silence, a moment of peace, for director Chloé Zhao.
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