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Nikki Giovanni doesn't think about her legacy. But here's a moment she felt proud : Wild Card with Rachel Martin

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Nikki Giovanni doesn't think about her legacy. But here's a moment she felt proud : Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Nikki Giovanni takes part in a Q&A following a screening of the documentary Going To Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project.

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Nikki Giovanni takes part in a Q&A following a screening of the documentary Going To Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project.

Michael Loccisano/Getty Images for FLC

A note from Wild Card host Rachel Martin:

There are so many words I could use to describe Nikki Giovanni: poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend. Giovanni is all those things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she did not have to apologize to anyone for who she was – or what she wanted from her life.

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She can write poems that look directly at all of the pain and hatred in the world, and she can write children’s books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars, and Black women lead the way.

Nikki Giovanni just turned 81, and her first eight or so decades of life have been about as accomplished as anyone could hope for. She has been doing it her own way all along. And writing it down so the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and whatever hard thing we are stuck in.

Nikki Giovanni reads her poem “A Good Cry.”

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This Wild Card interview has been edited for length and clarity. Host Rachel Martin asks guests randomly-selected questions from a deck of cards. Tap play above to listen to the full podcast, or read an excerpt below.

Question 1: Were you obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?

Nikki Giovanni: Yes. I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life, looking out the window, I have seen Mars, which is why I talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that as a Black woman, my sisters and I could build a community.

Rachel Martin: When did Mars first come into your head? Do you remember?

Giovanni: I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed by the wall, I don’t know why. That gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and watch the stars. And the stars haven’t changed. So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What am I learning?

Martin: Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? You had a tough home life. You’ve talked and written a lot about that. Did that help you escape whatever was going on at home?

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Giovanni: Well, my parents had what I would call, in nice words, a troubled marriage. And space let me know that this could not be the end. When you start to look at the stars and you think about the other life forms, you think, “Well, there is something else. I can’t quit now. There is something else.”

Question 2: What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

Giovanni: Patience. I’m incredibly patient.

Martin: Where does that come from?

Giovanni: Well, I don’t know. I’m the baby sister of two. So you’re always watching your big sisters because they’re always so wonderful. They’re prettier, they’re more intelligent, everything. And you want to say, well, one day I’ll grow up or whatever.

But I also have a great love of old people and old women. I have very few friends my age. I’m 81. Being 80 kicked my butt. I mean, if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me. And I was thinking, okay, I had lung cancer, and I had breast cancer, and I realized I don’t want to be sitting in hell – because I don’t think I’m going to heaven – but I don’t want to be sitting in hell, and have people say “she fought cancer for 20 years.” I’m not fighting any disease. I’m learning to live with it. And I want the disease to live with me.

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So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we’re in good shape. And I say, well, let’s take a shower and go about our day. And one day, we won’t. And then that means that I’ll be transitioned. I’ll be in another place.

Martin: Yeah. Are you afraid of anything?

Giovanni: Well, I’m – I’m very cautious around ostriches.

Martin: Nikki, what are you talking about? Ostriches? You’re afraid of ostriches?

Giovanni: Well, yeah. Have you ever been on a safari? They are mean. And that kick will kill you. Ask a lion. If you had to put a lion against an ostrich, the lion is gone.

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Martin: That’s just not where I thought we were going to go. [laughs]

Giovanni: I’m not afraid of lions because lions are an intelligent being that, unless you’re threatening them, they’re not going to bother you. You have to be careful around ostriches. People need to know that.

Question 3: Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

Giovanni: No.

Martin: Wow. I’m surprised by that answer.

Giovanni: Because it gets you caught up in your life, and your life is not about your life, your life is about your duty. And so, no, I don’t think about it.

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Martin: Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy?

Giovanni: Oh, I’ve seen a lot. I know a lot of famous people, and they’ll say, “I wonder what my stamp would look like.” I’ll be dead. So it doesn’t matter. I’m just glad when me and cancer wake up. And one day, we won’t.

My friend Tony Morrison whom I love so very much, she wrote in Sula, when Sula is dying, she says, “oh wait till I tell Nell it doesn’t hurt. Wait till I tell Nell.”

Martin: Let me ask this question in a different way. I get what you’re saying, that you don’t want to get wrapped up in your ego. But are there moments when you think back on your life and allow yourself moments to feel proud?

Giovanni: Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I’ve worked hard. And when I went to the opening of the African American Museum in D.C, I had forgotten we gave permission to use my poetry. And when I turned a corner, there was a photograph of me. And it brought tears to my eyes. And I turned over my shoulder and said, “Look, grandmother, I did my duty.” And that still amazes me. It’s like she was there. I did my duty and that’s what matters to me.

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Appeals court denies Trump’s request to halt removal of his name from the Kennedy Center

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Appeals court denies Trump’s request to halt removal of his name from the Kennedy Center

The Kennedy Center on June 28, with its facade signage still covered by a tarp and scaffolding.

Alex Wroblewski/AFP via Getty Images


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Alex Wroblewski/AFP via Getty Images

On Wednesday, a federal appeals court denied President Trump’s request to stop the removal of his name from Washington, D.C.’s Kennedy Center. The signage on the building has been covered with tarp and scaffolding since June 13, but in a court filing last month, the center’s current executive director said that Trump’s name has been removed.

In their decision, three judges from the U.S. District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said that the president had failed to prove that the arts center would be “irreparably injured” without Trump’s name attached to it.

NPR requested comment from the Kennedy Center, but did not receive an immediate reply.

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This latest round of court decisions is part of the ongoing litigation filed by Rep. Joyce Beatty, D-Ohio, against President Trump and the board of the Kennedy Center. In a statement emailed Wednesday to NPR, Beatty said: “Today’s ruling again affirms that this administration’s efforts to rename the Kennedy Center were unlawful. His name no longer desecrates this sacred memorial, which belongs to the American people. Now it is time for the Trump administration to accept this, comply with the law, and take the tarps down.”

In previous court filings, Trump’s legal team had asserted that removing the president’s name from the arts complex, both on the physical building and in its digital materials, would inflict irreparable harm in both time and money already spent. In the denial, the three judges — Patricia Millett, Robert Wilkins and Gregory Katsas — wrote that since Trump’s name has already been removed, “a stay would not avert those harms.”

Furthermore, Trump had claimed that without his name attached, future fundraising would be threatened “and [will] contribute to the financial decline of the Center.” In response, the appeals judges wrote: “Appellants, however, have failed to support this assertion with any specific facts or evidence. They offer only the conclusory assertions of the Kennedy Center’s Executive Director that were made in a factually unsupported declaration.” The center’s current executive director, Matt Floca, specializes in physical plant management.

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A meal with an animated Mona Lisa? Immersive dining goes high tech — but will L.A. eat it up?

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A meal with an animated Mona Lisa? Immersive dining goes high tech — but will L.A. eat it up?

My dinner course is served. It is a Campbell’s-inspired soup can, lightly angled so strands of broccoli are peeking out. I lift the can to uncover a slow-braised short rib and mashed potatoes. An American dish to represent an American artist, here Andy Warhol.

The room is overtaken with projections, scenes of bustling New York traffic paired with bachelor-pad-like guitar riffs. Shown on a wall above a dinner table is a selection of Warhol silkscreens. It’s a Friday night in West Hollywood, and I’m surrounded by a mix of out-of-towners and those celebrating an anniversary. And while this is a special occasion, we’re urged to get a little messy with our food — to use our hands, to paint with a salad, to draw on a cookie.

The main course: A tomato soup can? “7 Paintings” is an immersive event that occasionally hides dishes in artist-inspired presentations.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

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Play is the primary side dish at “7 Paintings,” a tech-infused dinner theater that aims to be a crash course in fine art. That selection of veggies paired with multiple mini cups of colorful dressings? Guests are encouraged to mix and match the vinaigrettes into a mess of hues, a nod to abstractionist Jackson Pollock. And yellowfin tuna with dashes of avocado and taro chips? That’s an edible tribute to Banksy, of course. What does raw fish have to do with stenciled street art? It’s bold, heavily angled and has a short shelf life? Maybe? Perhaps don’t overthink it.

Even the paper is edible.

Even the paper is edible.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

“Have you ever eaten a painting before?” says Nadine Beshir, the Dubai-based creator of “7 Paintings.” “We try to get people out of their comfort zones and eating paper. I want to bring out the child in them.”

“7 Paintings,” held at Sunset House L.A. through the end of August, is the latest example of immersive dining to arrive in this city. These experiences often involve guest participation and are accentuated with advanced multimedia technology and sometimes theatrical elements.

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Worldwide, there have been standouts. For instance, Eatrenalin at Germany’s Europa-Park, a dining room-meets-ride where participants are whisked around the space on trackless “floating chairs,” has just received a coveted Michelin star. Ibiza’s Sublimotion has similar haute ambitions, pairing 12 diners together in a room that will come alive with otherworldly projections and performers. At times, diners will win don virtual reality headgear.

But tech-driven immersive dining experiences have never quite taken off in Los Angeles as a trend. Last year, the Gallery, where fantastical cityscapes and projections surrounded downtown L.A. diners, stood just a couple months before the concept was abandoned.

A dinner event titled "7 Paintings" is a 7-course meal with projections

“7 Paintings” pairs food with art and music. It’s “fun dining, not fine dining,” says its founder.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

Bartender Luca Famulari shakes a cocktail at the immersive dining event.

Bartender Luca Famulari shakes a cocktail at the immersive dining event.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

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“The economics of a restaurant are not the same as the economics of theater and the challenge of combining the two lies in thinking outside the box with respect to pricing and cost structure, such that the customer perceives high value from both the food and the experience,” says the Gallery co-founder Daren Ulmer.

Entrepreneurs keep aiming for that careful balance. “Le Petit Chef and Friends” is currently running at Tangier at downtown’s Hotel Figueroa, an event in which a fully animated film is projected on our plates and tables. Long-running pop-up event Fork N’ Film leans more dinner and movie, pairing dishes directly inspired by what is happening on screen. Upcoming films include “Ratatouille” and “Lilo and Stitch.”

The field comes with challenges. “The costs are very high,” says Joanna Garner, an immersive designer and former creative director with experiential art firm Meow Wolf. Garner has been experimenting herself with communal, immersive dinner events, and her next, the flirtatious “Please Open Your Mouth,” is set for July 11. (No tech there, as Garner is after a more sensual, adult-focused gathering.) Tickets for her event are $150 and a spot in the “7 Paintings” dining room runs $175, priced on par with a number of city’s most acclaimed restaurants.

There is also the reality that all public dining is in some fashion immersive, usually requiring varying combinations of engagement, communication and presentation. And then, are all these added elements distracting?

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An animated Mona Lisa sits on the wall as guests enjoy their meals.

An animated Mona Lisa sits on the wall as guests enjoy their meals. Throughout the dinner, the painting provides factoids on various artists.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

Throughout “7 Paintings,” for instance, an animated Mona Lisa, situated on the wall next to the main dinner table, will provide brief biographical details of each artist represented.

“Being able to nail the food, and nail the story, those are two very difficult threads to weave,” Garner says. “I do think, ultimately, people come to a dinner table to talk to the people at the table and to have intimate experiences. To have an experience where you’re constantly being taken away from the food, I’m not so sure if that’s what people are looking for.”

Food is framed as a star of “7 Paintings” but tasting it is just one component. At one point, we must uncover a cheese course in a tiny treasure chest, the code for the lock hidden in the projections (don’t stress, it’s not a hard puzzle). Beshir highlights the Pollock-inspired salad course, which is accentuated with a jazz soundtrack, as the thesis of the evening.

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1 A guest uses a silicon brush to apply sauces onto an entree, a nod to abstractionist Jackson Pollock.

2 Projections fill up the dining table during meals.

1. A guest uses a silicon brush to apply sauces onto an entree, a nod to abstractionist Jackson Pollock. 2. Projections fill up the dining table during meals.

“This course is really about getting people to free their minds from preconceived ideas,” Beshir says. “Like, you have to eat with a fork and knife, or the salad comes and then the dressing. No, the dressing comes and then the salad, and it’s trying with big brushes to paint the way he did. A lot of people do not understand Abstract Expressionism, and they think it’s people just splashing colors around. But when you understand the link between the rhythm of the music and painting, you live it. We give you time to paint with your salad dressing.”

In L.A., Beshir has partnered with nightlife impresario Kim Kelly, who is plotting a “Sleep No More”-inspired walk-around theatrical show for the Sunset House venue later this year. “7 Paintings,” however, is fully seated, and purposefully a little silly. Beshir and Kelly have been evolving it during its L.A. run, recently adding a stronger painting component by giving guests their own canvas to work on throughout the evening. Each night crowns a winner.

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“Everyone comes over to look at their art,” Kelly says. “It just kind of changed the whole thing, to be honest. People are now being creative throughout the entire evening. Instead of just watching and occasionally painting, you’re now painting the whole time.”

As for what, perhaps, soba noodles with edamame and mushrooms have to do with Pablo Picasso, or why Salvador Dali gets an unexpected dessert course of a white chocolate potato souffle, Beshir clarifies the goal of the evening. While the animated Mona Lisa will provide backstories on each painter, this isn’t an educational night. “It’s fun dining, not fine dining,” Beshir says.

And by the end of my night, strangers were socializing, showing off their painted cookie creations, sharing Banksy tidbits and asking for recommendations on various vinaigrette combinations. Ultimately, it’s an evening of discovery, packed with surprises like finding an entire course hidden under a canvas.

Two men smile as they dine at a dinner event

Darryl Mayes of Charlotte, N.C., left, and Taylor Smith of North Hollywood, right, uncover their course.

(Christina House / Los Angeles Times)

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“We try not to have too much sophistication, like fried ants or something. I’m personally very adventurous in how I eat, but if I want to have this in 100 cities around the world, I cannot be too meticulous.”

And Beshir has big goals.

“I want this be your movie and dinner thing,” Beshir says. “I want people to be waiting for our next show, and to be able to afford to come every couple months.”

And to come home not with leftovers, but perhaps a painting of their own.

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We unpack the 2026 Emmy nominations : Pop Culture Happy Hour

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We unpack the 2026 Emmy nominations : Pop Culture Happy Hour

Matthew Rhys was nominated for his role in Widow’s Bay.

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The 2026 Emmy nominations are here. We’re unpacking the record-breaking nominations for Hacks, plus a big day for Widow’s Bay, The Pitt, and The Bear. We’ll also talk about the snubs and make some early predictions of who will win. 

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