For a lot of within the small south Caucasus nation of Georgia, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine introduced again painful recollections of its personal conflict with Russia in 2008. Though that conflict lasted solely 5 days, Russian troops have maintained a everlasting presence in two breakaway areas in Georgia, accounting for round 20 % of the nation’s territory.

But, the present Georgian authorities has opted to not be a part of ranks with Western international locations imposing sanctions on Moscow within the wake of its brutal invasion of Ukraine; Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Garibashvili argued that sanctioning Russia was not in his nation’s greatest pursuits. The transfer sparked a diplomatic spat with Ukraine, which led Kyiv to recall its ambassador to Tbilisi. 

Overseas Coverage spoke with Georgian President Salome Zourabichvili about what the conflict in Ukraine means for Tbilisi, Georgia’s unrelenting NATO ambitions, and the nation’s choice to not be a part of Western sanctions on Russia. 

This dialog has been calmly edited for readability and size.

Overseas Coverage: What’s the temper like proper now in Georgia? How has Russia’s invasion of Ukraine affected Georgia’s place, notably as regards to its personal safety?

Salome Zourabichvili: We’re very a lot conscious of being the neighbor to Russia—and a Russia that has by no means modified from the time it was imperial Russia, to Soviet Russia, to as we speak’s Russia. So what’s totally different this time is the dimension of the battle in Ukraine and the resistance and the resilience of Ukraine in the direction of this aggression. So the Georgian public is each involved however in an additionally resilient means and is displaying lots of solidarity with Ukraine due to the truth that we perceive what it means when there’s a direct menace to your sovereignty, to your independence.

FP: Do you are feeling like Georgia is getting sufficient assist from the West, from Europe and the US, at this second?

SZ: It’s a blended image. We’re getting assist. It’s very clear in all of the conferences. We simply had a delegation from Congress visiting Georgia. We’ve had contacts and visits earlier than the battle from the European Union; [European Council President] Charles Michel was 3 times in Georgia final 12 months. So there may be assist to Georgia, and we at the moment are on the trail towards this accelerated integration or no matter will probably be. 

On the similar time, I feel that it’s the time for Georgia to be extra clearly within the thoughts of everybody. As a result of we’re, along with Moldova, we’re the 2 international locations which might be on the “entrance traces” near Russia, and which aren’t protected by both the European Union safety system nor by, in fact, the NATO safety ensures. In order that makes us extra susceptible in each eventualities, in truth: whether or not Russia wins and will get extra bold or whether or not, because it appears now, Russia loses or doesn’t win in the best way that they would want, after which could possibly be searching for compensation. So I’m not saying that it’s eventualities that we predict are essentially going to occur. However I feel that we’d should be extra regularly talked about. After all, the precedence and the main target has been on Ukraine and needs to be on Ukraine. There isn’t any doubt about that. And there’s no competitors there. However that ought to not imply that Georgia is one way or the other forgotten as a result of that may be sending the very unsuitable message to Moscow. 

FP: What about materials assist? Is Georgia searching for additional safety help out of your companions within the West? Do you’ve any concrete requests in that regard? 

SZ: As a companion to NATO, there was an train with NATO only a month in the past, and we have now been doing all of the issues that might have been included within the [NATO] Membership Motion Plan, if there was one. We may at all times get extra assist and help. I feel that what will likely be essential within the time to return goes to be the Black Sea. And that’s the place we want help when it comes to intelligence sharing, in order that we all know higher what’s occurring, particularly as Russia is now making an attempt to manage extra of the shores of the Black Sea. Cybersecurity is a area wherein we have now been asking for extra assist and extra cooperation. Defensive armaments are one thing that we want extra of.

FP: I do know that Georgia has utilized for EU membership, and also you’ve acquired a questionnaire from the EU. However on NATO, have you ever heard any optimistic indicators from the alliance that they might prolong an invite to Georgia to use to affix?

SZ: I’ve not heard something. What I hope is that the subsequent summit in Madrid will permit for participation and the place we’ll see whether or not NATO members are prepared to supply one thing extra that might parallel what the EU has been doing when it comes to accelerated integration. However in the intervening time, I’ve not heard that dialogue in such phrases. 

FP: Georgia can greatest perceive, to some extent, what the Ukrainians are going by proper now, having beforehand been invaded by Russia. However on the similar time, Georgia has not joined with Western sanctions towards Russia.

SZ: That’s factually completely not true. And I do know the place it comes from as a result of the governmental authorities [in Georgia] have at sure instances stated that we’re not going to have sanctions. And that was [intended for] inside public opinion, explaining that we weren’t going to have nationwide sanctions as well as [to international sanctions]. As a result of in truth, we’re part of all of the worldwide sanctions, SWIFT, all of the monetary sanctions. Not solely are Georgian monetary authorities and banks compliant, however they’re over-compliant as a result of they’re very nervous to be in any means diverging from the remainder. And that’s the most necessary as a result of that’s what is admittedly costing lots to Georgia. 

However the different factor is that, in truth, there may be nothing a lot that Georgia can do when it comes to particular person sanctions. What we have now with Russia is that we had been importing wheat from Ukraine and Russian wheat; we’re 90 % dependent. Now it’s an issue of funds, so if we can’t pay, we’re not going to be importing. And there may be some commerce, in fact, between Georgia and Russia, however that’s mainly fruits, which aren’t sanctioned items, so it’s actually a mismanagement, I’d say, of the presentation of what Georgia is doing relatively than the distinction when it comes to making use of or not making use of sanctions.

FP: However the Ukrainians did withdraw their ambassador from Tbilisi. Are you saying they misunderstood Georgia’s place?

SZ: I feel there are some political undertones to that, which might be linked to inside Georgian politics and hyperlinks of a number of the [Georgian] opposition events, with a number of the Ukrainian leaders.

FP: What do you imply by that? 

SZ: Nicely, I feel that there are some opposition. … However that’s not one thing I wish to have actually uncovered as a result of I feel that, right now, we want the connection to be as shut as attainable between Ukraine and Georgia. And something that’s projecting any type of distinction, and that is one thing that I informed to Ukrainian leaders, concerning the expulsion of the ambassador, it’s one thing that’s enjoying into the palms of Russia and no one else. In order that’s why it’s a problem that I don’t like to debate, but it surely’s clear that there are some opposition leaders in Georgia, near [former Georgian President and Odesa Gov. Mikheil] Saakashvili—who was in Ukraine and has his associates there—and he’s making an attempt to tug strings between Georgia and Ukraine, which I don’t assume is admittedly the proper second to be performed.

FP: You talked about Saakashvili, who is clearly nonetheless imprisoned. I do know you’ve stated earlier than that you simply wouldn’t think about pardoning him, however the choice to imprison him within the first place, do you assume that was the proper transfer?

SZ: That’s a really unusual query. It’s the tribunals which have determined, and I don’t need to assist or to be towards. I pardoned a lot of the leaders of Saakashvili’s social gathering as soon as they had been sentenced. At the moment, that was final 12 months, I used to be pondering that this could assist the method of inside reconciliation and depolarization. Right here, we’re in a very reverse place, which is that pardoning Saakashvili could be a matter for intense polarization in Georgia as a result of there may be both half of the nation that’s as adamant on one facet and possibly extra, a majority, towards any type of pardon. 

And as I’ve stated, there’s a totally different challenge that if he’s actually recognized for any severe sickness, then I feel that every one the measures needs to be taken to guard his well being. What’s most necessary, given the safety state of affairs we’re in, is to take care of unity. What we’ve seen in Ukraine is an indication of that, that you’re resilient and you may resist something for those who’re united, and we have now a implausible instance of actual unity of the inhabitants across the management in Ukraine.

FP: Are you involved concerning the message that Saakashvili’s arrest sends to the world?

SZ: I don’t assume that Saakashvili is a vital challenge as we speak.

FP: It’s seen as an necessary challenge for the well being of a democracy although. Going after former heads of state is usually seen as a regarding signal. 

SZ: [Former French President Nicolas] Sarkozy has been sentenced and is underneath home arrest. And there are various others, [including former Italian Prime Minister Silvio] Berlusconi. So I don’t assume it’s a measurement of any type of democracy. And I don’t assume that given the very severe points in and round Georgia as we speak and [in] the area, I don’t assume that it’s an precise very severe challenge. 

FP: I simply needed to shortly contact by yourself relationship with the federal government of Georgia. There have been reviews that they had been going to take you to courtroom accusing you of overstepping your remit as president. What do you make of those challenges?

SZ: Nothing. 

FP: Nothing?

SZ: I don’t assume once more that it’s a problem for a world information outlet as a result of it’s an inside political challenge.

FP: There was lots of consideration to what has been described as democratic backsliding in Georgia. 

SZ: However I feel that, too, is a bit exaggerated. I feel that there are, like in lots of different international locations, issues. However I feel that we have now, for example, a particularly free media. We’ve the issue of the reform of the judicial system that has not been going ahead as quick as I’d have wished and as we had been anticipated to do, but it surely’s not a backsliding. It’s not going ahead as quick as needed. 

And I feel that the brand new path towards Euro integration may be very welcome past the truth that it’s a extra direct path as a result of it’ll pressure us to do sure issues that we should be compelled to do with extra vitality. So I’m an optimist. I feel that we’re going within the very proper path. Anyone that involves Georgia doesn’t see the nation as being a nondemocratic nation or backsliding. And I feel that the extra consideration we get, the extra we are going to transfer in that path in a extra decided means.