The Vermont Dialog with David Goodman is a VTDigger podcast that options in-depth interviews on native and nationwide points with politicians, activists, artists, changemakers and residents who’re making a distinction. Pay attention under, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or Spotify to listen to extra.

Jane Mayer has earned a fame as one of many nation’s prime investigative reporters. As chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker, Mayer has been relentless in exposing the hidden forces shaping American politics. Her bestselling ebook, “Darkish Cash: The Hidden Historical past of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Proper,” paperwork the huge affect of the Koch brothers and was named one of many 10 greatest books of 2016 by the New York Occasions. 

Previously 12 months, Mayer has uncovered the right-wing funders behind former President Donald Trump’s Huge Lie of a stolen election. She reported how Ginni Thomas secretly supported the Jan. 6 revolt as her husband, Supreme Court docket Justice Clarence Thomas, thought-about instances that concerned her. And this month she uncovered the shadowy conservative group that smeared Choose Ketanji Brown Jackson in a failed try and derail her Supreme Court docket affirmation. 

Mayer typically provokes the ire of these she exposes. The Koch Brothers employed investigators to smear her, and the topic of her most up-to-date exposé tweeted her private contact info in an try and intimidate her. 

Mayer labored on the Wall Road Journal earlier than becoming a member of the New Yorker in 1995. She has received quite a few awards for her reporting. Esquire referred to as Mayer “fairly merely one of many only a few, completely invaluable journalists this nation has.” 

Disclosure: Jane Mayer serves on the board of the Vermont Journalism Belief, the dad or mum group of VTDigger. 

This transcript has been edited for size and readability.

David Goodman  

Readers know you in your nationwide reporting, however they could not know that your journalism roots are in small city Vermont. Speak about how you bought began. 

Jane Mayer  

With out Vermont, I do not know that I’d have been a reporter. It gave me my first probability to attempt it on the smallest weekly newspaper within the state, which was the Weathersfield Weekly (Editor’s be aware: The Weathersfield Weekly printed from 1971 to 1986). My mother and father have been dwelling in Weathersfield, and I had nothing to do in the summertime. I used to be a teen, and my mother stated, Oh, why do not you attempt to work on the weekly newspaper? It was run by the Hunter household in Weathersfield Heart, and so they gave me an opportunity to attempt being a reporter. It was so small. We additionally developed the pictures and we printed the paper, and since Armstrong Hunter had a neighborhood printing press, he printed it proper there. We collated it, then we put it behind the automotive, and we personally delivered it to our readers. It was a implausible expertise. 

That summer season was an vital summer season for journalism. We listened all summer season lengthy to the Watergate hearings on the radio. We’d hear these unimaginable hearings unfolding about corruption in Washington that had been uncovered within the very starting by two reporters, Woodward and Bernstein. They appeared so heroic and within the public service that I believed they appeared like a super of what you can do.

David Goodman  

You additionally labored on the Rutland Herald earlier than going to the Wall Road Journal. 

Jane Mayer  

There was one other paper in Vermont, too. After we received out of faculty, my pals began the Black River Tribune in Ludlow, Vermont. And I used to be the so-called theater critic. I used to go to the Weston Playhouse and write concerning the place. I additionally did some illustrating for it. I really wished to be an illustrator and a cartoonist to start with. I attempted to be a cartoonist for the Rutland Herald. However it will take me two days to do a extremely good cartoon, and I’d drive it over to Rutland and get $20 for it. And I believed God, I can by no means make a dwelling doing this. I did not understand how anyone may. So I received caught having to jot down as an alternative. And I received employed as a neighborhood reporter masking first hospital information in Rutland, the place I decide up the record of who died, who was born and who was admitted.

David Goodman  

In 1984, you turned the Wall Road Journal’s first feminine White Home correspondent. What was your expertise breaking the gender barrier within the White Home press room?

Jane Mayer  

It was form of enjoyable. I used to be fairly younger to have such an esteemed job. I believe they in all probability picked me largely for gender causes. I might been doing tales on the on the Wall Road Journal that caught the attention of the Washington bureau chief. I might been in Beirut, and he favored the tales I used to be writing. I wish to suppose there was some expertise concerned, however I believe they actually wished to have a lady and put a feminine on the White Home at that time. So I began masking Reagan, It was proper earlier than his 1984 reelection marketing campaign. I suppose in some methods, I used to be a beneficiary of affirmative motion. There was nonetheless numerous sexism. And even within the Washington bureau of the Wall Road Journal, there was form of a perception that girls could not actually do the maths that is required to know arms management. I’d be masking the presidency, however when it got here to his arms management summits, they’d scrape me off and have me keep dwelling and ship the fellows. So I did not get to cowl Reagan’s historic summit at Reykjavik. I bear in mind speaking to my boss and saying, Effectively, what am I alleged to do? And he stated, Why do not you keep dwelling and do a chunk about Nancy Reagan’s favourite gown designer?

Reagan himself was considerably patronizing. I interviewed him a variety of occasions, however when he referred to as on me in a press convention, he stated, “You the little woman in pink” [referring to] a pink gown that I used to be sporting. I had simply written a narrative about how he at all times referred to as on ladies sporting pink. I used to be a bit woman in his view. The world at that time — it was so regular to us, I barely took offense or took discover. I principally simply form of thought, actually, you suppose I would like to remain dwelling throughout an arms management summit and write a few gown designer? Let me present you. And I’d attempt to write one thing that truly mattered and simply do my greatest.

David Goodman  

You have got been a dogged investigator and chronicler of the Koch brothers, who’re the guts of the proper wing funding ecosphere. Give us a primer: Who’re the Koch brothers, and what do they need?

Jane Mayer  

Once we speak concerning the Koch brothers, it used to imply Charles Koch and his brother, David Koch. David died in 2019. So we’re actually speaking about one of many Koch brothers, Charles Koch. He’s the principal proprietor of Koch Industries, which is usually ranked as the most important non-public firm in America. He’s a billionaire many, many occasions over. The enterprise that he has is in fossil fuels, refining oil and oil pipelines, some coal, and fuel and chemical substances. It owns nylon — it principally makes all of the nylon. It is only a gigantic, sprawling multinational conglomerate. 

Charles Koch is a extremely attention-grabbing fellow. He’s an extremist politically who’s a zealot as regards to hating authorities. He would not need it to intrude together with his enterprise. He would not consider there ought to be rules. He is been hit with quite a few lawsuits having to do together with his firm’s air pollution — air air pollution, water air pollution, local weather air pollution — and he is taken umbrage at that. He comes out of the John Birch Society wing of American politics. His father was one of many founders of the John Birch Society. Charles is now 86. He inherited a fortune and made it tremendously bigger. And he poured it into turning into the first sponsor of libertarianism in America. He is very secretive about his position in American politics. He began in earnest possibly 40 years in the past, however his views on the time have been thought to be to date out on the intense proper fringe that he was form of a joke. Even fellow conservatives form of made enjoyable of him, like William F. Buckley, who referred to as him an anarcho-totalitarian. However by being persistent and form of visionary in his manner, and so wealthy, he actually made inroads into American politics to the purpose the place he mainstreamed a lot of his excessive concepts. They’ve now taken over a lot of the Republican Occasion. And the Republican Occasion, in fact, has had big affect on the path of America. So this one man, Charles Koch, and his brother David, by dint of utilizing their cash strategically, actually formed numerous American politics, and Charles nonetheless does.

David Goodman  

The Koch brothers had a public falling out with Trump. There appeared to be a short divorce. Clarify what occurred between Koch and Trump.

Jane Mayer  

By 2016, we have Trump operating for president. Charles Koch had one other thought. He’d created by then a form of a consortium of different extremely wealthy conservatives who have been pooling their cash in a jackpot. They wished to select who was going to be the Republican nominee. I believe that they had $889 million between them able to go. They thought this was the second they have been going to lastly get the White Home and get the individual they wished in it. They have been foiled by Trump, who appealed extra to voters than any of the opposite 16 Republican nominees for the presidency. All the others have been high quality with Charles Koch. However Trump wasn’t actually taking part in Koch’s recreation. Koch actually likes to manage the individuals he offers cash to. Trump is weirdly uncontrollable. Trump’s a powerful man who desires to have energy. And Charles Koch would not actually consider in authorities and would not need the federal government to have a lot energy. He desires enterprise to rule. So that you had this conflict. Charles Koch stated in 2016 that the selection between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump was like the selection between most cancers and a coronary heart assault. These weren’t his thought of good candidates. 

You’d have thought then that the Koch machine in politics was defeated. However there was a second chapter that was fairly completely different. What occurred was that by election evening, when Trump was celebrating, none apart from David Koch popped up and was proper there with him. The subsequent factor that occurred was that these two amazingly transactional power-seeking figures in American politics had made form of a deal. I do not understand how specific it was or if it was only a matter of practicality, however principally the individuals who Trump picked for the entire positions that matter to Koch Industries — which have been the environmental positions and positions having to do with regulation, and the courts and taxes — these are the problems that matter to the billionaire Koch machine which desires to maintain the taxes actually low and hold polluting and do nothing about fossil fuels and local weather change. All these positions within the Koch administration — excuse me, within the Trump administration, although it’d as properly have been the Koch administration — they have been crammed with individuals who have been allies of the Kochs, and lots of of them had really labored for the Kochs. In trade, the Koch machine began to place cash into Trump’s coverage initiatives, notably the massive tax cuts for the richest individuals within the nation. The Kochs poured cash behind that in commercials and pushed onerous for it. In order that they received a working relationship, not on each difficulty, however on the problems that basically matter to Koch Industries.

David Goodman  

You have additionally reported on Democratic darkish cash teams. What is the distinction between Republican and Democrat darkish cash affect?

Jane Mayer  

The Democrats have tried to meet up with the conservatives. They have been behind however by 2020, in accordance with some calculations, the Democrats even spent extra. It is actually onerous to quantify. 

Let’s outline what darkish cash is. It’s cash the place you possibly can’t work out the place it is coming from. That makes it very onerous to precisely quantify. Cash goes into teams the place they do not reveal the unique sources. My view is that the conservative motion is significantly better organized in the case of this. The Democrats are inclined to pour cash behind candidates and into particular races. It does make a distinction, however they do not actually have the identical infrastructure that the Kochs constructed up over all these years. It is a tremendous machine. The Kochs have funded over 350 packages in faculties and universities. They’re inculcating their mind-set into the younger individuals who come out of those colleges. They have an array of very far proper ideological suppose tanks that prove place papers and “different truth” papers that argue the alternative of what many mainstream consultants would say. As an example, the Cato Institute in Washington is an institute that the Kochs started. I bear in mind going over there and their consultants have been arguing that the polar bears had by no means been higher off than they have been in dealing with world warming. No professional in polar bears believed this. However they will put out a paper that claims that and so they will pay a scientist or two to say that. Then you could have two sides of an argument the place reality and actuality are on one aspect, (and on the opposite aspect) you create what Kellyanne Conway referred to as different info. So they have factories for different info within the suppose tanks and consultants who like to go testify in entrance of Congress. And so they have advocacy teams — People for Prosperity is the principle one which belongs to the Kochs. They have teams that argue instances in courts. It is a multipurpose, political machine and system that is been constructed up over the a long time. The Democrats have a few of that, simply not as a lot.

David Goodman  

The questioning of Choose Ketanji Brown Jackson throughout her Supreme Court docket affirmation hearings steadily included views that started on the perimeter, even the QAnon fringe, after which turned the speaking factors of Republican senators. Your newest piece for The New Yorker seems on the funding and organizations behind the assaults on Biden’s nominees. Inform us concerning the American Accountability Basis and the way fringe concepts transfer into the mainstream.

Jane Mayer  

The American Accountability Basis is an offshoot of one other larger group referred to as the Conservative Partnership Institute. It is based mostly in Washington. It is registered with the IRS as a charity as an academic group, and you’ll give to it and get a tax deduction. But each of these teams are deeply concerned in partisan politics and so they’re staffed by individuals who got here straight out of the Trump administration. (Trump chief of workers) Mark Meadows is there, Cleta Mitchell is there — she has been a main lawyer for the conservative motion — and a variety of different individuals who’ve been very carefully aligned with Trump are operating these teams, and so they’ve received 1,000,000 {dollars} from Trump’s political management pack. It is actually a bit Island of Elba for the Trump administration. They really had somebody there who was simply digging up filth on each single Biden nomination. This group has made its goal in life to cease each nominee of Biden’s from getting confirmed. They do it by simply throwing buckets of mud at individuals — numerous it’s product of a much less well mannered substance. I’ve tried very rigorously to research what their work was. And there is numerous actual disgusting smears that they have been doing. They tried to go after Ketanji Brown Jackson and body her as some form of harmful softy on little one pornographers and pederasts. There was an effort by this slime machine, because the New Yorker referred to as this group, to go after her. A handful of Republican senators then picked up the oppo analysis from the slime machine and threw it at Jackson, but it surely did not maintain up beneath scrutiny. It turned out if you happen to put her document in context, she really had a really common document on the best way that she sentenced individuals for sexual offenses. It was no completely different than that of a few half dozen Trump judicial nominees who the identical Republican senators had supported. So it form of fell aside on shut inspection. 

The issue is that this group has gone after a variety of a lot much less well-known nominees the place there is not that form of scrutiny from the press and it is simpler to actually distort their information. A big proportion of the individuals they’ve gone after are ladies and other people of shade. The factor that this group has been doing lots is making an attempt to make numerous arguments which might be actually racially loaded. It is a actually ugly factor to see in American politics. And it is funded by supposedly tax exempt contributions.

David Goodman  

You have got uncovered this community of funding and affect on the proper, together with the position that Ginni Thomas, the spouse of Supreme Court docket Justice Clarence Thomas, has performed in supporting the Jan. 6 revolt. What considerations you most as you shine a light-weight in these darkish cash locations?

Jane Mayer  

I really feel prefer it’s so apparent that it hardly must be stated, however cash is absolutely corrupting American politics. That is the underside line: One thing’s received to be achieved about this cash. Everybody wonders, why cannot Congress get issues achieved? Why does it appear so dysfunctional? It is captured by non-public pursuits. 

You need the federal government to work within the public curiosity. The federal government is us. We’re self-governing on this nation. However what we’re making an attempt to do retains getting hijacked by secret non-public pursuits. Most individuals haven’t got the time to hint the cash and see how this entire factor is getting distorted by these arguments and who’s actually behind them. I attempt to try this and put the knowledge on the market in order that strange people who find themselves too busy to do that can say, Oh, in order that’s who’s making that argument. It is actually the tobacco corporations which might be telling you to smoke and that it isn’t unhealthy for you. You do not belief them whenever you understand who it’s. There are people who find themselves lining their pockets who’re making self-interested arguments, but it surely’s onerous to maintain up with it, whilst a reporter. There’s simply a lot cash coming from so many locations. It is overripe for reform.

David Goodman  

People who find themselves jaded and skeptical simply say, Effectively, politics has at all times been captured by large cash. What’s completely different about the place we’re at the moment in comparison with the place we have been 20 years in the past?

Jane Mayer  

I’m an eyewitness to say it hasn’t at all times been like this. After I walked into political reporting on the White Home in 1984, Ronald Reagan was operating for reelection. As president, he didn’t maintain a single fundraiser. He accepted public financing. And he had achieved that in 1980, as did Jimmy Carter. They did not take non-public funds. We have managed to wash up the cash system a variety of occasions in American politics. In fact, the cash goes to return flowing again. It is like water, you’ve received to maintain plugging it and plugging it. However you’ll find it. You possibly can repair it. We’ve got reformed it. We’re at a second once more the place cash is simply plain washing all the things else out with it. As I stated, the time is ripe for reform. 

David Goodman  

Being within the enterprise of unveiling secrets and techniques of people that need to hold secrets and techniques has put you within the crosshairs. When you have been researching your newest article about darkish cash, the pinnacle of the American Accountability Basis tweeted out your e-mail tackle and cellphone quantity and advised you to go pound sand. And the Koch brothers employed a half-dozen investigators to dig up filth that might embarrass or discredit you. What has been the non-public fallout for you of doing this sort of reporting?

Jane Mayer  

It’s a must to just remember to haven’t got some large skeletons within the closet. I do not. However the worrisome factor is that they will make issues up. That is what we have seen. And other people could also be gullible and consider it. My mother was simply visiting for the weekend. She stated, Honey, do not take any cups of tea from strangers. Be a bit cautious.

David Goodman  

Do you are concerned about your individual security?

Jane Mayer  

No, I actually do not. It is an unimaginable factor to be a reporter on this nation. It isn’t like — knock on wooden — being in Russia, thank God, the place individuals who inform the reality are put in jail.

David Goodman  

You coated the autumn of the Berlin Wall and the tip of the Soviet Union. We’re now speaking overtly concerning the rise of authoritarianism in the US. One may nearly say that the Texas anti-abortion legislation that encourages vigilantes to show of their neighbors who they believe of getting abortions is paying homage to what the Stasi used to do in East Germany. Do you’re feeling prefer it’s come full circle, the place you are seeing a few of the belongings you noticed in Japanese Europe echoing in American politics?

Jane Mayer  

I believe it is a fairly darkish time. It appears like a harmful hiatus proper now. The Trump years felt fairly harmful and being referred to as an enemy of the individuals was terrible. The issues that have been occurring have been horrifying. The tried coup on the finish of his time continues to be surprising to me. A few of the issues that I’ve coated in different elements of the world, I do see echoes of right here. It is made me understand that we’re not shielded from human nature and the form of terrible historical past that is taken place elsewhere. It hasn’t at all times been good in America, both. However the susceptibility to authoritarian strongman authorities — and simply the hate and the concept factionalism that you just see in locations just like the Center East, after I was in Beirut the place it is nearly barbaric what individuals do to one another — I hate to see any of it stirring right here. It is definitely very completely different from Vermont. This concept of spying in your neighbors could not be extra completely different from the concept of simply dwell and let dwell, which is among the many pretty, fantastic issues about Vermont.

David Goodman  

You talked about at the start how you bought into journalism partly impressed by the work of Woodward and Bernstein holding an earlier technology of corrupt politicians accountable. Do you suppose that journalism and the work that you just do nonetheless has the facility to be that watchdog of democracy?

Jane Mayer  

I believe it has a lot much less energy now than earlier than the web. There are nonetheless implausible reporters and there was superb reporting achieved in the course of the Trump years. And there is superb reporting being achieved on the native stage in numerous locations, together with by VTDigger. However the factor is that the web is crammed with junk. So we’re competing now with retailers that simply aren’t high quality, and I believe it is onerous for readers to separate out which is actual and which isn’t actual. That is been an actual drawback.

David Goodman  

You have got uncovered a lot darkness. The place do you see the sunshine? 

Jane Mayer  

I am really fairly optimistic at all times. As a result of I’ve seen change and I’ve seen change for good. I believe lots of people have frequent sense. If they will get the knowledge, individuals of various political persuasions can meet on frequent floor. A few of the issues I’ve coated I felt like I actually did see progress. I did numerous protection in the course of the Bush years of the torture program that that was secretly being employed by the Bush administration on detainees within the struggle on terror. I watched as reporters and public spirited individuals in authorities and attorneys pushed again onerous and so they fastened numerous it. It is disappointing to me that Guantanamo continues to be open. Nevertheless it’s actually been superb to see issues like waterboarding uncovered and ended. So I’ve seen change happen, and there is been numerous forces for good in addition to these darkish issues. Shining the sunshine on them is the best way to go.