Culture
Explaining the lost generation of footballers who came after Messi and Ronaldo
On October 28, at the Theatre du Chatelet in Paris, there will be a new winner of the Ballon d’Or, the highest individual accolade in men’s football.
By common consent, the leading contenders are Brazilian winger Vinicius Junior, who scored in Real Madrid’s Champions League final victory, and Spanish midfielder Rodri, who excelled in triumphant campaigns for both Manchester City and his national team.
Should Vinicius Jr, 24, win the award, he will be the first player born in the 21st century to do so. More remarkably, Rodri would be the first winner born in the 1990s. Either would be the first winner to be born since December 1987. Such was the dominance of Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, who have respectively won eight and five of the last 15 Ballon d’Or titles, a run punctuated only by victories for two of their contemporaries: Luka Modric in 2018 and Karim Benzema in 2022.
Messi, Ronaldo, Modric and Benzema were all born in the mid-to-late 1980s. All were regarded as prodigious talents in their teens. All have excelled deep into their thirties and only now, in the twilight years of their careers, have they begun to wind down: Messi, 37, in Major League Soccer with Inter Miami, and Ronaldo, 39, and Benzema, 36, in the Saudi Pro League with Al Nassr and Al Ittihad. Modric, 39, is still going strong at Real Madrid.
Cristiano Ronaldo and Luka Modric, both born in 1985, competing in 2009 — both are still playing in 2024 (Glyn Kirk/AFP via Getty Images)
The brilliance of Messi and Ronaldo often overshadowed that of a group of players now in their early-to-mid thirties that includes Neymar, Toni Kroos, Kevin De Bruyne, Mohamed Salah, Virgil van Dijk, Harry Kane, Antoine Griezmann and the retired duo of Eden Hazard and Gareth Bale.
A new generation of superstars, proven or potential, has emerged, including Kylian Mbappe, Vinicius Jr, Erling Haaland, Jude Bellingham, Phil Foden, Jamal Musiala and Lamine Yamal. Of this group, Mbappe is the oldest at 25. The rest were all born since the turn of the century (as late as 2007, in the case of Yamal, the prodigiously talented Barcelona winger).
But what of those who came after Neymar, De Bruyne, Salah et al but before Mbappe? When it comes to the group born in the mid-1990s — a group who, logically speaking, should be around its collective peak — there is a gap, not necessarily in talent, but certainly in profile, recognition and, upon deeper analysis, representation in top-level football in Europe.
Nobody would describe the Ballon d’Or as the perfect barometer of individual performance, but take a look at this graphic that illustrates top-20 rankings by age group since 2008.

Away from the clustered centre of the graphic, what jumps out is that red area containing just a handful of dots. Selected findings include:
- Rodri finishing fifth in last year’s vote is the only top-five place for a player born between 1994 and 1997
- Beyond that, the only player in that age group to have earned a top-10 placing is Rodri’s Manchester City’s team-mate Bernardo Silva (ninth in 2019 and 2023)
- The only other top-20 placings in that age group have been Frenkie de Jong (11th in 2019), Raheem Sterling (12th in 2019 and 15th in 2021), Sebastien Haller (13th in 2022), Luis Diaz (18th in 2022) — none of whom was nominated this time — and Lautaro Martinez (20th in 2023)
- By contrast, from the younger age group, Mbappe has already recorded six consecutive top-10 placings while Haaland (twice), Vinicius Jr (twice) and Victor Osimhen have also finished in the top 10
- Of this year’s 30-man Ballon d’Or longlist, Rodri is one of just seven players born between 1994 and 1997. The other six are Ruben Dias, Hakan Calhanoglu, Artem Dovbyk, Alejandro Grimaldo, Ademola Lookman and Martinez, of whom only Dias and Martinez have been nominated previously.
Admittedly that is just the Ballon d’Or, an award voted for by journalists, drawing on subjective evaluations and, almost inevitably, coloured to some extent by players’ profiles as well as their performance. As a barometer of individual excellence, it is far from perfect — even if its less prestigious rival, the ‘Best’ FIFA award, has produced broadly similar results.
But it certainly tells you something about the way footballers are projected and valued. And when it comes to that group born in the mid-1990s, there is certainly a deficit.
In the cases of Rodri and Bernardo, highly sophisticated players who excel in understated roles at a club that lacks the media profile of the traditional superpowers, that has long seemed more a question of image than of quality. We will come back to that issue.
But there is more to this. Taken more broadly, that mid-1990s age group seems to be struggling for recognition — not just by fans or the media but within the game.
Bernardo Silva, born in 1994 and 1996’s Rodri have been key to City’s successes (Jacques Feeney/Offside/Offside via Getty Images)
When the FIFA technical study group, led by former Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger, published its report on the 2022 World Cup, it briefly mentioned the tournament had been “defined by the performances of young talents and experienced masters”.
Wenger cited the technical prowess, physical strength and mental fortitude of Musiala, Bellingham and Saka at one end of the spectrum and, at the other end, of the enduring quality of players in their mid-to-late thirties such as Messi, Ronaldo, Modric and Olivier Giroud.
“In the modern game the young players are ready to perform earlier on the biggest stage,” he said before turning his mind to a generation of players who had continued to excel well into their thirties. “This,” said Wenger, referring to the latter group, “did not happen 20 years ago, so it looks like there is an extension of the career at the highest level.”
What Wenger and the technical study group did not address was the relative lack of impact made on the tournament by players in the in-between age group.
That was reflected in the age distribution of players at that World Cup. Of the 832 players called up for the tournament, the highest representations by birth year were for 1997 (ie, aged 25) and 1992 (ie, aged 30). Those born in 1994, who might logically have been at the optimum age for a World Cup held in 2022, came in at seventh.
That might be a mere statistical quirk rather than anything deeper, but there follows a graph illustrating the number of minutes played in the Premier League from 2018-19 to 2020-21. The findings are mostly as you would expect: the dominant group is the one born between 1991 and 1994 — those who were between 23 and 27 when that cycle began and between 26 and 30 when the cycle finished. Think of it as the De Bruyne, Kane, Salah generation.

There is a significant drop in the number of Premier League minutes in that time by players born in 1995, i.e. those aged between 23 and 27 over the period in question.
Again it could just be a wrinkle, indicative of nothing much. You would expect that age group to become more dominant over the next three-year period.
But they didn’t. As it transpired, that 1995 age group got barely more playing time between 2021-22 and 2023-24, a period during which they were between the ages of 26 and 29. The minutes played by those born in the early 1990s fell, as you would expect, but so did the numbers for those born in 1993, 1994 and 1995, who might otherwise have expected to become the dominant groups over that period.
Instead, the dominant age groups now were those born in 1996 and 1997 — those aged between 24 and 25 when the cycle began and 26 and 27 when the cycle ended. Those born in 1995 were drastically underrepresented. Even those born in 2001 (players aged between 20 and 23 over the period in question) came close to the total playing time of those born in 1995.
To put some names to the numbers, think of it in similar terms to England’s Euro 2024 squad selection, where players in their mid-to-late twenties such as Sterling (born in 1994), Kalvin Phillips and Jack Grealish (1995), Ben Chilwell and James Maddison (1996) and Marcus Rashford (1997) found themselves usurped by younger players such as Anthony Gordon (born in 2001), Cole Palmer (2002) and Kobbie Mainoo (2005)
It seems to reflect a wider trend. Using the same three-year cycles, the dominant age group in terms of playing time across Europe’s ‘big five’ leagues (Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1) has shifted from those born in the early 1990s to those born from 1997 onwards. Again the mid-’90s group that theoretically should have been in the ascendancy over the past few seasons has been overtaken by a younger group.

Jose Chieira, who has been a scout for more than two decades at clubs such as Sporting Lisbon, Porto and Panathinaikos, considers the question before declaring, “I don’t believe in generational gaps” — at least not in terms of talent and quality.
But he believes market forces have created a gap. “In the last six or seven years, the strategies of the dominant forces in the market are increasingly based on a different logic,” he tells The Athletic. “It is increasingly a trading business — a typically American trading culture.
“Clubs don’t (today) go looking for players who were born before 2000. We’re already filtering for players under 23 years old. Any older and it’s not a good deal, it’s not attractive. And that has consequences for the way the market has evolved in terms of the talents or the profile of the players who dominate the game.”
As Chieira suggests, there has been a decisive shift as many clubs’ business models have moved towards developing and selling young players to those clubs higher up the food chain.
Of the 50 biggest transfers to Premier League clubs this summer, according to Transfermarkt, only eight involved players aged 26-plus (Tottenham Hotspur’s Dominic Solanke, West Ham United’s Max Kilman and Niclas Fullkrug, Arsenal’s Mikel Merino, Fulham’s Joachim Andersen and Sander Berge, Southampton’s Aaron Ramsdale and Newcastle United’s Odysseas Vlachodimos). Ten years earlier, in the summer of 2014, that age bracket accounted for eight of the 25 biggest deals. The market for players in their mid-to-late twenties is nothing like it was.
Tottenham bucked a trend by paying big money this summer for the then-26-year-old Dominic Solanke (Catherine Ivill – AMA/Getty Images)
Real Madrid’s Champions League-winning squad last season was dominated by a cluster of players born in the 1980s and early 1990s (Thibaut Courtois, Dani Carvajal, Nacho, Antonio Rudiger, David Alaba, Lucas Vazquez, Modric and Kroos) and a group of young stars born in the late 1990s and early 2000s (including Federico Valverde, Eduardo Camavinga, Aurelien Tchouameni, Vinicius Jr, Rodrygo and Bellingham). Again, that mid-1990s group was barely present: just backup goalkeeper Kepa Arrizabalaga (1994) Ferland Mendy (1995) and Dani Ceballos (1996). When Nacho and Kroos moved on this summer, the incoming players were much younger, notably Mbappe (1998) and Brazilian prodigy Endrick (2006).
It is similar at Barcelona: a handful of players born either in the late 1980s (Robert Lewandowski) and early 1990s (Inigo Martinez and Marc-Andre ter Stegen) and a core of players born in from the late 1990s onwards. Between Ter Stegen (1992) and Dani Olmo (1998), there are just three players: Andreas Christensen and Raphinha (both 1996) and De Jong (1997).
An extreme example concerns Chelsea, whose strategy over the past couple of years has appeared to exclude almost any player born before 1997. Their squad last season comprised primarily of Thiago Silva (born 1984), Sterling (1994), Chilwell (1996) and a vast core of younger players, the majority of them born since the turn of the century. Sterling and Chilwell found themselves frozen out completely before this season began: big earners in their late twenties, said to be incompatible with the technical demands of new coach Enzo Maresca.
“This tendency to focus on trading in the talent market has been decisive in creating this apparent gap,” Chieira says. “It will become increasingly difficult to find players in that exact age range — between the ages of 24 and 30, say — who can be true standout players and reference points like Bernardo Silva and others are today. More and more clubs don’t really want to ‘waste time’ working with players over the age of 24 because there’s a commercial logic that tells from that, from 25 or 26, the player will lose value. Therefore the effort and financial resources are directed towards younger players.”
That has certainly appeared true of Chelsea. But there are notable exceptions.
One is Bayern Munich, whose core group includes Leon Goretzka, Joshua Kimmich, Joao Palhinha and Serge Gnabry (all born in 1995) and Leroy Sane, Kingsley Coman and Kim Min-jae (1996).
And there are the Premier League champions, Manchester City, who have John Stones, Mateo Kovacic and Bernardo (all born in 1994), Nathan Ake, Manuel Akanji and Grealish (1995), Rodri (1996) and Dias (1997).
In some ways, that seems instructive when it comes to the profile — technical and otherwise — of the more successful players in that age group.
Since calling time on a playing career that took him from Port Vale to Luton Town, Leicester City and Fleetwood Town, Joe Davis has launched a digital marketing agency that supports professional footballers and athletes build their brand.
He has studied that subject in depth from a commercial and a sporting perspective. “The Messi-Ronaldo era is unique,” he says. “They created this unrealistic expectation of what it means to be a football megastar. They redefined the ceiling, which has overshadowed much of the incredible talent that came next.”
Davis feels it is only as Messi and Ronaldo have begun to wind down, away from the intensity of the European football spotlight, that “we have allowed ourselves to recognise the talent of players like Haaland and Mbappe. It was the in-between group that, with Messi and Ronaldo in their prime, were overlooked for so long”.
Joe Davis competing with Adebayo Akinfenwa in 2012 (Pete Norton/Getty Images)
With his marketing head on, Davis wonders whether there was a commercial aspect to this, talking about the “immaturity of athlete branding” through much of the 2010s. The opportunities for the modern players to promote themselves are far greater, he says, which is one reason why “this new wave of young talent” — Mbappe, Haaland, Vinicius Jr, Bellingham, Musiala, Yamal and so on — “has become so big so soon”.
The word “wave” is apposite. Whether it is music, film, sport or just about anything else, we are conditioned to see such phenomena in those terms. Sometimes it takes one band, one star or athlete to force a way through and blaze a trail for others to follow. Sometimes there is a desperation to anoint new stars. Sometimes it is the opposition: a desperate refusal to look beyond the zeitgeist and its leading characters.
Did the long peak of Ronaldo and Messi overshadow the generation that came after them? (Ben Stanshall/AFP via Getty Images)
But away from off-pitch image and profile, Davis suggests another factor that has played into the hands of the new wave: a subtle shift in playing styles which he says has been “arguably more accommodating to ‘luxury’ players” — or at least to those such as Haaland and Mbappe, whose goalscoring talents are so extreme that, breaking into elite-level football, they were not encumbered with as many out-of-possession demands as, say they might have been had they been born five years earlier.
Davis cites his experience as a 20-year-old defender for Port Vale, playing against an 18-year-old Grealish, who was on loan to Notts County. “He was everywhere: tracking back, covering the full-back, pressing our winger, then getting back out to the byline to receive the ball,” Davis says. “At that time, making it wasn’t just about talent; it was also about hard work and discipline, that, ‘Don’t let us down’ mentality. You see it with Bernardo Silva as well — tremendous quality and intelligence but defensive intensity and adaptability as well.
“That era — my era — possibly had different values instilled in them during their breakthrough years, which is probably why they play their game a little more under the radar and in a more structured and workmanlike way. That naturally takes the limelight off them and places it on the more exciting, carefree, creative players — those that immediately capture the imagination of the casual fan.”
That makes perfect sense. That group of players now in their mid-to-late twenties broke into senior football when demands were changing due to an increased emphasis on the type of work they did off the ball — not just “tracking back” but closing down in a structured, organised way. Through the 2010s, the role of the traditional centre-forward seemed to be under threat, which is perhaps why, beyond Martinez, there are so few “pure” goalscorers in that age group.
Lautaro Martinez: a rare born-in-the-mid-1990s goalscorer? (Valerio Pennicino/Getty Images)
There is a strange paradox. In terms of profile and projection, the cult of the individual has grown over the past decade like never before, such has been the explosion of social media and global branding. At the same time, the cult of the individual on the pitch has diminished. In the past, leading teams might have been able to carry a “luxury” player or two. That changed Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp built teams whose commitment to creative football came with non-negotiable physical and tactical demands on every player. It is easy to imagine that, if they were five years older or five years younger, Bernardo and Valverde might have been deployed as mercurial wingers or No 10s rather than cerebral, multi-functional midfielders.
But individualism seems to be back in vogue. So does what might be termed ‘main-character energy’. Mbappe, Haaland, Vinicius Jr, Bellingham, Musiala, Yamal… this is a generation of leading players who are encouraged to “do their thing” and play to their enormous strengths — which, in the cases of Mbappe and Haaland, has meant scoring goals at an extraordinary rate rather than worrying unduly about the structure of their team’s pressing game.
They are players whose rare talents merit indulgence — and all of the hype and adulation that comes with their exploits.
The brilliance of Kylian Mbappe
Maybe the story is less complicated than that. Maybe the development of top-class athletes is analogous to wine production. Some years, for reasons that can be hard to explain, yield better crops than others.
To put it in blunt terms, 1987 was a vintage year that brought Messi, Benzema and Luis Suarez; 1992 brought Neymar, Salah, Courtois, Son Heung-min and Sadio Mane; 1998 brought Mbappe, Osimhen, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Valverde and Martin Odegaard; 2000 brought Haaland, Vinicius Jr, Foden, Julian Alvarez and Aurelien Tchouameni.
By comparison, the mid-1990s age group is strangely underwhelming. Transfermarkt’s most valuable footballer born in 1995 is Ollie Watkins, whose career has been a slow-burner, coming up through the leagues with Exeter City and Brentford before establishing himself as a proven goalscorer in the Premier League with Aston Villa in his mid-twenties. The second-most valuable player born in 1996, behind Rodri, is Maddison, who, as he approaches his 28th birthday, has seven caps for England and is yet to play in the Champions League.
Ollie Watkins – 1995’s finest? (Neville Williams/Aston Villa FC via Getty Images)
It is fascinating to look back at the list of winners of the Golden Boy award, established by Italian football newspaper Tuttosport to recognise the best player under the age of 21 in each calendar year.
Early winners of the award include Wayne Rooney, Messi and Cesc Fabregas. The past four editions have been won by Bellingham, Haaland and the Barcelona duo of Gavi and Pedri. Before that, it was Joao Felix, Matthijs de Ligt and Mbappe.
For the 2014, 2015 and 2016 editions, which covered the age group we have been talking about, the winners were Sterling (then at Liverpool), Anthony Martial (then at Manchester United) and Renato Sanches (then at Bayern Munich) — exciting talents certainly, but even at that stage of their careers they did not command the same hype or expectation as a young Rooney, Fabregas or Bellingham, let alone a teenage Mbappe or Messi.
Neither did the other names who featured in the top three for the Golden Boy over those years: Rashford, Divock Origi, Marquinhos, Kingsley Coman and Hector Bellerin.
They have had long and successful careers; Marquinhos is captain of Paris Saint-Germain and has won 91 caps for Brazil; Coman has won the Champions League with Bayern Munich and played for France in the 2022 World Cup final; Origi scored for Liverpool in a Champions League final.
But even if Martial, Renato Sanches, Rashford and Origi can be accused of falling short of their potential, we are not being wise after the event to suggest they were exciting teenagers whose promise was pockmarked with inconsistencies, rather than dead certs to thrive at elite level. Maybe, for reasons that defy explanation, these were just non-vintage crops.
The ‘lost generation’ phenomenon is far starker and far more unambiguous in men’s tennis. The dominance of the ‘Big Three’ of Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic was so extreme that they won 53 out of the 61 Grand Slam tournaments held between June 2005 and June 2020.
There were break-out victories for Andy Murray and Stan Wawrinka (three majors each) and Juan Martin Del Potro and Marin Cilic (one apiece), but all four of those players were in roughly the same age bracket as Nadal and Djokovic.
How Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic reconfigured tennis
The real lost generation in men’s tennis was the one that that came later and, sharing the circuit with players whose genius was matched by their powers of endurance, found there was no way through. Austria’s Dominic Thiem (born in 1993) and Daniil Medvedev (1996) are the the only men born between 1989 and 2000 to have won a Grand Slam.
The latest ATP rankings tell a story: beyond Djokovic (1987) in fourth place, Bulgaria’s Grigor Dimitrov (1991) is the only player in the top 20 who was born between 1988 and 1995. It is Carlos Alcaraz (2003) and Jannik Sinner (2001) who are leading men’s tennis into the post-Big Three era.
Federer, Nadal and Djokovic (Julian Finney/Getty Images for Laver Cup)
The idea of a lost generation is certain to be far hazier in a team sport such as football, where individual performance is so much harder to quantify. The term does not truly fit when a) we are talking about a period spanning four years or so and b) almost every top-level game you watch features high-performing players from that age group, one of whom, Rodri, would have a claim to be considered the most influential player in world football over the past three or four years.
But it seems unarguable that, as a collective, the players born in the mid-1990s have been overshadowed by the group that went before and, increasingly, by the group that has emerged since. The Ballon d’Or rankings will never tell the whole story but they help illustrate the deficit of big personalities and show-stopping talents that command the greatest attention and recognition.
The absence of a Ronaldo/Messi figure is entirely normal, but it is also a group that is strangely short of A-list goalkeepers, central defenders, wingers and centre-forwards. Almost without exception, the best players in that age group are sophisticated, adaptable ‘system players’ rather than marauding box-to-box dynamos and mercurial playmakers.
Beyond that, market forces have begun to conspire against them as the focus has switched decisively towards youth. What might have expected to be the pre-eminent age group in 2024 has begun to struggle for playing time and to be squeezed out, particularly where wages or wage demands are deemed excessive. Adrien Rabiot, 29, has been unable to find a new club since leaving Juventus in June. Memphis Depay, 30, found numerous avenues in Europe closed and ended up joining Brazilian club Corinthians. It is not clear where Sterling, 29 and surplus to requirements at Chelsea, would have ended up had Arsenal not offered him a lifeline on transfer deadline day
And Sterling, while his returns have diminished over recent seasons, has certainly been one of the standout performers in his age group: a Golden Boy winner as a teenager at Liverpool, four times a Premier League champion at Manchester City, 82 England caps and, yes, a couple of top-20 finishes in the Ballon d’Or rankings, which is more than almost any other player in that mid-1990s age group.
Should his former Manchester City team-mate Rodri be crowned the best player in men’s football in 2024, it would represent a departure in terms of profile, playing style but also age. In many ways, Rodri would be the perfect choice, the quietly brilliant standard-bearer of an age group that has largely gone unheralded.
Unshowy, undemonstrative and, this sudden, long-overdue wave of Rodri appreciation notwithstanding, largely unheralded — fanfare, at last, for football’s jilted generation.
(Top photos: Getty Images; graphic: Meech Robinson)
Culture
What Happens When We Die? This Wallace Stevens Poem Has Thoughts.
Whatever you do, don’t think of a bird.
Now: What kind of bird are you not thinking about? A pigeon? A bald eagle? Something more poetic, like a skylark or a nightingale? In any case, would you say that this bird you aren’t thinking about is real?
Before you answer, read this poem, which is quite literally about not thinking of a bird.
Human consciousness is full of riddles. Neuroscientists, philosophers and dorm-room stoners argue continually about what it is and whether it even exists. For Wallace Stevens, the experience of having a mind was a perpetual source of wonder, puzzlement and delight — perfectly ordinary and utterly transcendent at the same time. He explored the mysteries and pleasures of consciousness in countless poems over the course of his long poetic career. It was arguably his great theme.
Stevens was born in 1879 and published his first book, “Harmonium,” in 1923, making him something of a late bloomer among American modernists. For much of his adult life, he worked as an executive for the Hartford Accident and Indemnity Company, rising to the rank of vice president. He viewed insurance less as a day job to support his poetry than as a parallel vocation. He pursued both activities with quiet diligence, spending his days at the office and composing poems in his head as he walked to and from work.
As a young man, Stevens dreamed of traveling to Europe, though he never crossed the Atlantic. In middle age he made regular trips to Florida, and his poems are frequently infused with ideas of Paris and Rome and memories of Key West. Others partake of the stringent beauty of New England. But the landscapes he explores, wintry or tropical, provincial or cosmopolitan, are above all mental landscapes, created by and in the imagination.
Are those worlds real?
Let’s return to the palm tree and its avian inhabitant, in that tranquil Key West sunset of the mind.
Until then, we find consolation in fangles.
Culture
Wil Wheaton Discusses ‘Stand By Me’ and Narrating ‘The Body’ Audiobook
When the director Rob Reiner cast his leads in the 1986 film “Stand by Me,” he looked for young actors who were as close as possible to the personalities of the four children they’d be playing. There was the wise beyond his years kid from a rough family (River Phoenix), the slightly dim worrywart (Jerry O’Connell), the cutup with a temper (Corey Feldman) and the sensitive, bookish boy.
Wil Wheaton was perfect for that last one, Gordie Lachance, a doe-eyed child who is ignored by his family in favor of his late older brother. Now, 40 years later, he’s traveling the country to attend anniversary screenings of the film, alongside O’Connell and Feldman, which has thrown him back into the turmoil that he felt as an adolescent.
Wheaton has channeled those emotions and his on-set memories into his latest project: narrating a new audiobook version of “The Body,” the 1982 Stephen King novella on which the film was based.
A few years ago, Wheaton started to float the idea of returning to the story that gave him his big break — that of a quartet of boys in 1959 Oregon, in their last days before high school, setting out to find a classmate’s dead body. “I’ve been telling the story of ‘Stand By Me’ since I was 12 years old,” he said.
But this time was different. Wheaton, who has narrated dozens of audiobooks, including Andy Weir’s “The Martian” and Ernest Cline’s “Ready Player One,” says he has come to enjoy narration more than screen acting. “I’m safe, I’m in the booth, nobody’s looking at me and I can just tell you a story.”
The fact that he, an older man looking back on his younger years, is narrating a story about an older man looking back on his younger years, is not lost on Wheaton. King’s original story is bathed in nostalgia. Coming to terms with death and loss is one of its primary themes.
Two days after appearing on stage at the Academy Awards as part of a tribute to Reiner — who was murdered in 2025 alongside his wife, Michele — Wheaton got on the phone to talk about recording the audiobook, reliving his favorite scenes from the film and reexamining a quintessential story of childhood loss through the lens of his own.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
“I felt really close to him, and my memory of him.”
Wheaton on channeling a co-star’s performance.
There’s this wonderful scene in “Stand By Me.” Gordie and Chris are walking down the tracks talking about junior high. Chris is telling Gordie, “I wish to hell I was your dad, because I care about you, and he obviously doesn’t.”
It’s just so honest and direct, in a way that kids talk to each other that adults don’t. And I think that one of the reasons that really sticks with people, and that piece really lands on a lot of audiences, and has for 40 years, is, just too many people have been Gordie in that scene.
That scene is virtually word for word taken from the text of the book. And when I was narrating that, I made a deliberate choice to do my best to recreate what River did in that scene.
“You’re just a kid,
Gordie–”
“I wish to fuck
I was your father!”
he said angrily.
“You wouldn’t go around
talking about takin those stupid shop courses if I was!
It’s like
God gave you something,
all those stories
you can make up, and He said:
This is what we got for you, kid.
Try not to lose it.
But kids lose everything
unless somebody looks out for them and if your folks
are too fucked up to do it
then maybe I ought to.”
I watched that scene a couple of times because I really wanted — I don’t know why it was so important to me to — well, I know: because I loved him, and I miss him. And I wanted to bring him into this as best as I could, right?
So I was reading that scene, and the words are identical to the script. And I had this very powerful flashback to being on the train tracks that day in Cottage Grove, Oregon. And I could see River standing next to them. They’re shooting my side of the scene and there’s River, right next to the camera, doing his off-camera dialogue, and there’s the sound guy, and there’s the boom operator. There’s my key light.
I could hear and feel it. It was the weirdest thing. It’s like I was right back there.
I was able to really take in the emotional memory of being Gordie in all of those scenes. So when I was narrating him and I’m me and I’m old with all of this experience, I just drew on what I remembered from being that little boy and what I remember of those friendships and what they meant to me and what they mean to me today.
“Rob gave me a gift. Rob gave me a career.”
Wheaton recalls the “Stand By Me” director’s way with kids on set, as well as his recent Oscars tribute.
Rob really encouraged us to be kids.
Jerry tells the most amazing story about that scene, where we were all sitting around, and doing our bit, and he improvised. He was just goofing around — we were just playing — and he said something about spitting water at the fat kid.
We get to the end of the scene, and he hears Rob. Rob comes around from behind the thing, and he goes, “Jerry!” And Jerry thinks, “Oh no, I’m in trouble. I’m in trouble because I improvised, and I’m not supposed to improvise.”
The context for Jerry is that he had been told by the adults in his life, “Sit on your hands and shut up. Stop trying to be a cutup. Stop trying to be funny. Stop disrupting people. Just be quiet.” And Jerry thinks, “Oh my God. I didn’t shut up. I’m in trouble. I’m gonna get fired.”
Rob leans in to all of us, and Rob says, “Hey, guys, do you see that? More of that. Do that!”
The whole time when you’re a kid actor, you’re just around all these adults who are constantly telling you to grow up. They’re mad that you’re being a kid. Rob just created an environment where not only was it supported that we would be kids — and have fun, and follow those kid instincts and do what was natural — it was expected. It was encouraged. We were supposed to do it.
They chanted together:
“I don’t shut up,
I grow up.
And when I look at you I throw up.”
“Then your mother goes around the corner
and licks it up,”
I said, and hauled ass out of there,
giving them the finger over my shoulder as I went.
I never had any friends later on
like the ones I had when I was twelve.
Jesus, did you?
When we were at the Oscars, I looked at Jerry. And we looked at this remarkable assemblage of the most amazingly talented, beautiful artists and storytellers. We looked around, and Jerry leans down, and he said, “We all got our start with Rob Reiner. He trusted every single one of us.”
And to stand there for him, when I really thought that I would be standing with him to talk about this stuff — it was a lot.
“I was really really really excited — like jumping up and down.”
The scene Wheaton was most looking forward to narrating: the tale of Lard Ass Hogan.
I was so excited to narrate it. It’s a great story! It’s a funny story. It’s such a lovely break — it’s an emotional and tonal shift from what’s happening in the movie.
I know this as a writer: You work to increase and release tension throughout a narrative, and Stephen King uses humor really effectively to release that tension. But it also raises the stakes, because we have these moments of joy and these moments of things being very silly in the midst of a lot of intensity.
That’s why the story of Lard Ass Hogan is so fun for me to tell. Because in the middle of that, we stop to do something that’s very, very fun, and very silly and very celebratory.
“Will you shut up and let him tell it?”
Teddy hollered.
Vern blinked.
“Sure. Yeah.
Okay.”
“Go on, Gordie,”
Chris said. “It’s not really much—”
“Naw,
we don’t expect much from a wet end like you,”
Teddy said,
“but tell it anyway.”
I cleared my throat. “So anyway.
It’s Pioneer Days,
and on the last night
they have these three big events.
There’s an egg-roll for the little kids and a sack-race for kids that are like eight or nine,
and then there’s the pie-eating contest.
And the main guy of the story
is this fat kid nobody likes
named Davie Hogan.”
When I narrate this story — whenever there is a moment of levity or humor, whenever there are those brief little moments that are the seasoning of the meal that makes it all so real and relatable — yes, it was very important to me to capture those moments.
I’m shifting in my chair, so I can feel each of those characters. It’s something that doesn’t exist in live action. It doesn’t exist in any other media.
“I feel the loss.”
Wheaton remembers River Phoenix.
The novella “The Body” is very much about Gordie remembering Chris. It’s darker, and it’s more painful, than the movie is.
I’ve been watching the movie on this tour and seeing River a lot. I remember him as a 14- and 15-year-old kid who just seemed so much older, and so much more experienced and so much wiser than me, and I’m only a year younger than him.
What hurts me now, and what I really felt when I was narrating this, is knowing what River was going through then. We didn’t know. I still don’t know the extent of how he was mistreated, but I know that he was. I know that adults failed him. That he should have been protected in every way that matters. And he just wasn’t.
And I, like Gordie, remember a boy who was loving. So loving, and generous and cared deeply about everyone around him, all the time. Who deserved to live a full life. Who had so much to offer the world. And it’s so unfair that he’s gone and taken from us. I had to go through a decades-long grieving process to come to terms with him dying.
Near the end
of 1971,
Chris
went into a Chicken Delight in Portland
to get a three-piece Snack Bucket.
Just ahead of him,
two men started arguing
about which one had been first in line. One of them pulled a knife.
Chris,
who had always been the best of us
at making peace,
stepped between them and was stabbed in the throat.
The man with the knife had spent time in four different institutions;
he had been released from Shawshank State Prison
only the week before.
Chris died almost instantly.
It is a privilege that I was allowed to tell this story. I get to tell Gordie Lachance’s story as originally imagined by Stephen King, with all of the experience of having lived my whole adult life with the memory of spending three months in Gordie Lachance’s skin.
Culture
Do You Know the Comics That Inspired These TV Adventures?
Welcome to Great Adaptations, the Book Review’s regular multiple-choice quiz about printed works that have gone on to find new life as movies, television shows, theatrical productions and more. This week’s challenge highlights offbeat television shows that began as comic books. Just tap or click your answers to the five questions below. And scroll down after you finish the last question for links to the comics and their screen versions.
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