As a kid in Cleveland, Arsenio Hall remembers watching The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and feeling that something was missing. “I could watch … for weeks at a time maybe never see a minority perform,” he says.

Hall yearned to create something different: “My dream was to one day grow up and show the other side of show business,” he says. “I wanted to do this show that didn’t exist when I was a kid. … I wanted those things that Johnny didn’t do.”

The Arsenio Hall Show, which ran from 1989 until 1994, delivered just that. At its peak, the show was syndicated on nearly 200 stations, running second in the late-night ratings to Hall’s idol, Carson.

Some of the most indelible moments in American culture happened on Hall’s set. In 1991, Magic Johnson chose the show as the first place to speak after announcing his HIV diagnosis. That same year, a 6-year-old Bruno Mars won a week of free groceries after performing his Elvis impression on the show. And Bill Clinton famously played his saxophone on set during the run-up to the 1992 presidential election.

But Hall says he faced criticism on multiple fronts: White audiences thought the show was too Black, while Black audiences accused the show of not being Black enough.

“In America, you’re never gonna be No. 1 if you have this insatiable desire to do Toni Braxton instead of Dolly Parton,” Hall explains. “And by the way, I tried to do both. I would try to mix it up; I would put Dolly Parton on and then have something for the culture after it.”

In 1994, Hall decided to walk away: “I realized I couldn’t go any higher, and I was gonna lose my affiliates when [David] Letterman came into the game. And the CBS affiliates were very important to my strength, my success, and my profits. … I always said, when I end it, I want to go out on the top,” he says.

Hall’s new memoir is Arsenio.

Interview highlights

Arsenio Hall and executive producer Marla Kell Brown pose during the show’s staff PJ party.

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On why his stage had couches instead of the desk that other late-night shows used 

Marla Kell Brown, my partner in crime, the executive producer, partner of the show … she had seen me do stand-up, and she talked about how I moved, and how free I was. She wanted me to be able to get up, to touch a guest, to decide to sit next to a guest. She felt — and she was right — the desk was this shield. This desk was something I was hiding behind. This desk was protective. And she wanted to take it away from me. When I took over for Joan Rivers, they let me host The Joan Rivers Show when she quit. And she had a desk. So at Fox, I’m sitting behind the Joan Rivers’ desk, and Marla said, “Why don’t you try it without the desk? I think you’ll like it. I would love to see you without that desk.” And we tried it. I had to admit she’s right, and the rest is history. I have to listen to Marla more often. …

It worked really well. When I watched it the first time, I knew it. To be able to lean into a guest and not have something between you. I remember doing an interview with Rosie Perez … [and] I held her hand during the interview because she was nervous. I remember an interview where Diana Ross kissed me. You can’t kiss me with the desk in between us. It created a different visual of a show and it became a thing.

On Magic Johnson‘s 1991 appearance, in which he talked about his HIV diagnosis

I call him Earv, Magic Johnson. He was a friend. And he called me because I had been worried about him. … And one of the things I remember most is he was afraid of losing friends, losing the love of friends and family. I remember the sentence, “I want people to still give me my hugs,” because Magic is a warm and fuzzy guy, and he’s that guy. I hugged him to show him I love him and I care.

I had heard a comic do an AIDS joke. And it was a very homophobic type joke. … We were so ignorant. We didn’t even know the rules of how you get it. And there were basketball players who didn’t want to play with Magic. So I think God gave me that hug or the inspiration to do that, to show people we don’t have to be afraid. …

I asked Earvin to go on Larry King or do Mike Wallace or something. I was like, “No, man, I can’t do that interview. You know me, I’m a crier. … You need a serious platform, dude. You need a journalist. I’m a comedian and infotainment late night guy.” And he says, “No I need you. I need to come there. I need come where I’m comfortable, because I’ve got to talk to the nation. And I’ve gotta give them my point of view. And I want to do it where I am comfortable.” So the point guard ran the play, and I just followed. And like he did in basketball, he makes everybody better.

On his angry reaction to being heckled by activists from Queer Nation in 1990 

I think you become more angry and you become stronger when you realize you are right, because a huge part of my staff was gay, many of my guests were gay, but it was at a time when you didn’t always know it. So the gay people on my show couldn’t even come to my defense. Ellen [DeGeneres] couldn’t come and say, “Oh, wait a minute, you guys don’t know.” … And Rosie [O’Donnell] was on the show a lot and a lot of people that may be still in the closet, so I won’t mention their names, but, it wasn’t my job to say, “Ladies and gentlemen, balladeer and homosexual, put your hands together …” It wasn’t my job to introduce a singer that way.

I think part of my anger was at that point [was] I’m being told by the Black community that it ain’t Black enough. I’m being told by the Paramount executives that it ain’t white enough. And now the gay community is gonna attack me during the show? You’re gonna take money out of my wallet and food off my family’s plate? In the middle of my job here, when you don’t know what you’re talking about? You’re gonna blame me for something that is absolutely not true? I think I was sick of being criticized by everyone because everyone wanted it to be something else. It’s hard being the first Black anything in late night.

On the success of his show 

I changed the culture in a way that I exposed America to some things they might not have seen if I didn’t come along then. If I came along now, it would be irrelevant. Everybody would now be gathering to watch Hammer, or this little Bruno Mars, or the Magic Johnson announcement. Timing is also very important. Talent is important. Hard work is important. But timing — if I came along 10 years before that, or if I came a long 10 years from now, it wouldn’t work. And that’s what’s really cool about life. Sometimes it’s the timing that matters.

Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Wisler produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Clare Lombardo adapted it for the web.