Culture
Is Caitlin Clark's star power strong enough to spike WNBA fandom?
The Athletic has live coverage of the 2024 WNBA draft.
Just eight days after playing for an NCAA national championship, Caitlin Clark is poised to become the No. 1 pick in the WNBA Draft and burst into the professional ranks with the star power to jolt the league at a pivotal moment in its trajectory.
Throngs of fans are expected to tune in for Monday night’s national broadcast when the Iowa star is all but certain to be selected by the Indiana Fever. From the moment her name is called and Clark takes center stage, she will become the WNBA’s most anticipated rookie in years. A popularity boost similar to the effect she had in women’s college basketball could follow her with every logo 3-pointer she makes and each pin-point pass she throws.
At Iowa, Clark’s impact was even greater than her resumé, which itself was outstanding with three conference tournament titles, two national championship appearances, and dozens of broken records, including the NCAA Division I all-time scoring mark. When Clark played, every game was appointment-viewing. Arenas sold out and television ratings records shattered.
The WNBA has already been on an ascent over the last few seasons with increases in nationally broadcast games, greater attendance and more media coverage. But Clark, who even South Carolina coach Dawn Staley described as “one of the GOATs of our game” after beating Iowa in the championship, is expected to catalyze a surge in fandom, television viewership, attendance and media coverage like no player before. Clark likely will have to continue to perform well and move the Fever out of their bottom-dweller status (Indiana hasn’t made the postseason since 2016) to further juice the WNBA economy. But the early returns indicate she will have an outsized impact.
“I would trade my whole team for her,” said one general manager, granted anonymity by The Athletic to speak freely about Clark. “Partly because our owner would do it to sell tickets. But on top of that, that’s such a great piece to start to build around. She’s (like Diana) Taurasi coming out, and look what Taurasi’s done.”
Clark will debut in the WNBA at just the right time. The league, entering its 28th season, is on the cusp of a two-year window that could determine its long-term health and future. It announced the addition of a 13th team last fall and intends to expand to 16 teams, according to sources with knowledge of the league’s plans. Charlotte, Toronto and Denver are among the front-runners, and stakeholders from Nashville, Philadelphia, Portland and South Florida have expressed interest to the league about adding a team.
A new media rights deal looms after the 2025 season. Negotiations on a new collective bargaining agreement are likely coming soon, too, and with it, talks about changes to league travel, roster size and salaries — including how players and the league split revenue. If the league’s economics improve — which Clark could impact by her potentially significant draw for sponsors — players could benefit from that, too, in the form of playoff bonuses and more travel accommodations.
The success of the 2024 draft class, led by Clark but also including college stars like Cameron Brink, Kamilla Cardoso and Angel Reese, will help shape the WNBA for years to come. Partnerships and media deals remain the league’s largest sources of revenue, and Clark has been a magnet for sponsors and a driver of record ratings in recent seasons.
That, coupled with her on-court prowess, is why obtaining the No. 1 pick in this year’s draft was so consequential.
“Caitlin is going to be Caitlin Clark,” said Chicago Sky head coach Teresa Weatherspoon, who also played in the WNBA and coached in the NBA. “She is an incredible talent, going to do amazing things in the WNBA. And it does an incredible thing for us, for the WNBA because of the fan base that follows along with her.”
The frenzy surrounding Clark in college is already carrying over to the WNBA. Thirty-six Fever games — 90 percent of its schedule — will be on national television this upcoming season, one more than the back-to-back champion Las Vegas Aces. According to ticket marketplace Vivid Seats, as of Wednesday, the average sold price for Indiana Fever tickets increased 190 percent since last season. The average list price on Vivid Seats for Indiana’s season-opener against the Connecticut Sun was up 91 percent since Clark declared for the WNBA Draft in late February.
Even before Clark officially joins the Fever, opposing franchises have scheduled around her expected presence. The Aces moved their July 2 home game against Indiana from their usual stadium into the larger T-Mobile Arena, which can accommodate 6,000 more people. The Minnesota Lynx are holding Maya Moore’s jersey retirement on the same night they host the Fever at the end of August. The Phoenix Mercury are already promoting their first contest against Indiana as The GOAT (Taurasi) vs. The Rook (Clark).
According to StubHub, sales for the Indiana Fever are up more than 13 times as of Thursday compared to this same time last year. “Caitlin Clark is already having a huge impact on the WNBA,” StubHub spokesperson Adam Budelli said in a statement.
This is nothing new to Clark, who sold out all but two games as a senior and drew 55,000 fans for an exhibition game inside Iowa’s football stadium. Clark doesn’t just get fans to spend money on tickets, though, she also pulls in sponsors. She has a growing list of endorsements from blue chip companies — Gatorade and State Farm, for instance — and is on the cusp of a new sneaker deal. Multiple sources with knowledge of the sneaker industry said Clark is set to sign a deal for more than $1 million annually, which would be one of the richest among WNBA players.
The WNBA, which relies on its partnerships as a large source of revenue, could see an influx of new companies interested in working with the league to be tied to Clark, and the Fever could see a boom. Clark’s effect on television ratings could have even more significant implications for the future of the WNBA. Ratings for the WNBA increased last season. The finals averaged 728,000 viewers across ABC and ESPN — the highest in 20 years. Yet Clark’s presence is likely to make the league more bullish as it enters those discussions.
South Carolina’s win over Iowa in the title game was seen on ABC by 18.9 million viewers, with a peak audience of 24.1 million — a 90 percent increase from the 2023 title game and a 289 percent increase from 2022. ESPN said it was the most-watched non-football or Olympics sporting event (men’s or women’s, college or pro) since 2019. The game broke viewership records that were just set days before in the national semifinal and Iowa’s Elite Eight matchup against LSU. All told, women’s college basketball viewership records were shattered across seven different networks in 2023-24, with Iowa taking part in each game.
Highest rated WCB games
| Teams | Event | Ratings | TV |
|---|---|---|---|
|
Iowa vs. South Carolina |
2024 championship |
18.9 M |
ABC |
|
Iowa vs. UConn |
2024 national semifinals |
14.4 M |
ESPN |
|
Iowa vs. LSU |
2024 regional championship |
12.3 M |
ESPN |
|
Iowa vs. LSU |
2023 national championship |
9.9 M |
ESPN |
The WNBA’s current TV deals will run through the 2025 season when its partnerships with ESPN, Amazon, CBS and Ion are set to expire. Its next media rights deal is likely to encompass both linear television and streaming broadcasts and could be a hybrid of some of the NBA’s current rights partners and rights partners unique to the WNBA, just as it’s structured now.
The NBA is in the middle of its exclusive negotiating window with Disney, which owns ESPN, and Warner Bros. Discovery, which owns TNT Sports. It is parceling together the WNBA rights with the NBA as it goes to market, and representing the WNBA in those talks (the NBA owns a 42.5 percent stake in the league, and several people own teams in both leagues).
Warner Bros. Discovery has shown interest in acquiring WNBA rights in the U.S., according to one person with knowledge of the talks. It just bought the right to broadcast the league in the United Kingdom and Ireland.
The next media deal will come with increasing rights fees for women’s sports. The National Women’s Soccer League agreed to deals that will pay the soccer league $60 million annually. WNBA commissioner Cathy Engelbert told CNBC she hopes to “at least double” the WNBA’s current fees, reportedly about $60 million annually, on its next deal.
“There’s no doubt, I think, especially over enormous interest, most recently around women’s college basketball and the growth in the WNBA over the last few years that the interest is heightened from where it used to be,” NBA commissioner Adam Silver said when discussing the next media deal.
Clark’s popularity also has impacted the sports gambling market, which could be a way to bring in viewers and consumers. The Iowa-South Carolina championship game was the biggest women’s single betting event of all time on FanDuel, breaking the handle record set in Iowa’s Final Four matchup against UConn. The title game also featured a 155 percent increase in handle on FanDuel over the 2023 Iowa-LSU championship game, the company said.
Sorry, @FDSportsbook doesn’t agree
Currently, you can bet on the following props:
Caitlin Clark to lead the Indiana Fever in scoring -280
Clark to average 22+ points per game in the WNBA reg season (must play 28+ reg season games) -135
To record 130+ made 3s in the 2024 WNBA… pic.twitter.com/ETz0bTj759— SportsGridTV (@SportsGridTV) April 9, 2024
Bettors already seem to be following Clark to the pros, where FanDuel said that 76 percent of 2024 WNBA MVP bets, as of April 10, have been placed on the future Fever guard. If they also turn into viewers, it is a potential additional way for the league to lift ratings and attendance.
Central to Clark’s appeal is her greatness on the court. Before the national championship, Iowa coach Lisa Bluder expressed concern about how fatigue might affect Clark’s debut season — there is only about a month between her final college game and her first WNBA regular-season contest. Taurasi, the No. 1 pick in the 2004 WNBA Draft, said that Clark, like other rookies, will need time to adjust.
“There’s a period of grace that you have to give rookies when they get to the league,” Taurasi said. “We’ve had some of the greats to ever play basketball, and it takes two or three years to get used to a different game (against) the best players in the world. As long as everyone has expectations that are realistic, they should be fine.”
Yet, Indiana will look to set up Clark for success in both the short- and long-term. She will have an ideal pick-and-roll partner in reigning, unanimous Rookie of the Year Aliyah Boston, and she’ll play in a backcourt alongside 2023 All-Star Kelsey Mitchell. WNBA opponents — bigger, faster and stronger than what she faced in college — will attack Clark defensively. Still, some — even those tasked with limiting her success this season — are already bullish about her potential impact.
“Her game is going to translate,” Aces coach Becky Hammon said. “You can see her work ethic, her professionalism already right now, at Iowa, in how she approaches her craft.”
(Illustration: John Bradford / The Athletic; Visual data: John Bradford / The Athletic, Amy Cavenaile / The Athletic; Photos of Fever logo and Caitlin Clark: M. Anthony Nesmith / Icon Sportswire / Getty, Thien-An Truong / ISI Photos)
Culture
Poetry Challenge: Memorize “The More Loving One” by W.H. Auden
Let’s memorize a poem! Not because it’s good for us or because we think we should, but because it’s fun, a mental challenge with a solid aesthetic reward. You can amuse yourself, impress your friends and maybe discover that your way of thinking about the world — or even, as you’ll see, the universe — has shifted a bit.
Over the next five days, we’ll look closely at a great poem by one of our favorite poets, and we’ll have games, readings and lots of encouragement to help you learn it by heart. Some of you know how this works: Last year more Times readers than we could count memorized a jaunty 18-line recap of an all-night ferry ride. (If you missed that adventure, it’s not too late to embark. The ticket is still valid.)
This time, we’re training our telescopes on W.H. Auden’s “The More Loving One” — a clever, compact meditation on love, disappointment and the night sky.
Here’s the first of its four stanzas, read for us by Matthew McConaughey:
The More Loving One
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,
But on earth indifference is the least
We have to dread from man or beast.
Matthew McConaughey, actor and poet
In four short lines we get a brisk, cynical tour of the universe: hell and the heavens, people and animals, coldness and cruelty. Commonplace observations — that the stars are distant; that life can be dangerous — are wound into a charming, provocative insight. The tone is conversational, mixing decorum and mild profanity in a manner that makes it a pleasure to keep reading.
Here’s Tracy K. Smith, a former U.S. poet laureate, with the second stanza:
How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.
Tracy K. Smith, poet
These lines abruptly shift the focus from astronomy to love, from the universal to the personal. Imagine how it would feel if the stars had massive, unrequited crushes on us! The speaker, couching his skepticism in a coy, hypothetical question, seems certain that we wouldn’t like this at all.
This certainty leads him to a remarkable confession, a moment of startling vulnerability. The poem’s title, “The More Loving One,” is restated with sweet, disarming frankness. Our friend is wearing his heart on his well-tailored sleeve.
The poem could end right there: two stanzas, point and counterpoint, about how we appreciate the stars in spite of their indifference because we would rather love than be loved.
But the third stanza takes it all back. Here’s Alison Bechdel reading it:
Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.
Alison Bechdel, graphic novelist
The speaker downgrades his foolish devotion to qualified admiration. No sooner has he established himself as “the more loving one” than he gives us — and perhaps himself — reason to doubt his ardor. He likes the stars fine, he guesses, but not so much as to think about them when they aren’t around.
The fourth and final stanza, read by Yiyun Li, takes this disenchantment even further:
Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.
Yiyun Li, author
Wounded defiance gives way to a more rueful, resigned state of mind. If the universe were to snuff out its lights entirely, the speaker reckons he would find beauty in the void. A starless sky would make him just as happy.
Though perhaps, like so many spurned lovers before and after, he protests a little too much. Every fan of popular music knows that a song about how you don’t care that your baby left you is usually saying the opposite.
The last line puts a brave face on heartbreak.
So there you have it. In just 16 lines, this poem manages to be somber and funny, transparent and elusive. But there’s more to it than that. There is, for one thing, a voice — a thinking, feeling person behind those lines.
When he wrote “The More Loving One,” in the 1950s, Wystan Hugh Auden was among the most beloved writers in the English-speaking world. Before this week is over there will be more to say about Auden, but like most poets he would have preferred that we give our primary attention to the poem.
Its structure is straightforward and ingenious. Each of the four stanzas is virtually a poem unto itself — a complete thought expressed in one or two sentences tied up in a neat pair of couplets. Every quatrain is a concise, witty observation: what literary scholars call an epigram.
This makes the work of memorization seem less daunting. We can take “The More Loving One” one epigram at a time, marvelling at how the four add up to something stranger, deeper and more complex than might first appear.
So let’s go back to the beginning and try to memorize that insouciant, knowing first stanza. Below you’ll find a game we made to get you started. Give it a shot, and come back tomorrow for more!
Play a game to learn it by heart. Need more practice? Listen to Ada Limón, Matthew McConaughey, W.H. Auden and others recite our poem.
Question 1/6
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well That, for all they care, I can go to hell,
Tap a word above to fill in the highlighted blank.
Your first task: Learn the first four lines!
Let’s start with the first couplet. Fill in the rhyming words.
Monday
Love, the cosmos and everything in between, all in 16 lines.
Tuesday (Available tomorrow)
What’s love got to do with it?
Wednesday (Available April 22)
How to write about love? Be a little heartsick (and the best poet of your time).
Thursday (Available April 23)
Are we alone in the universe? Does it matter?
Friday (Available April 24)
You did it! You’re a star.
Ready for another round? Try your hand at the 2025 Poetry Challenge.
Edited by Gregory Cowles, Alicia DeSantis and Nick Donofrio. Additional editing by Emily Eakin,
Joumana Khatib, Emma Lumeij and Miguel Salazar. Design and development by Umi Syam. Additional
game design by Eden Weingart. Video editing by Meg Felling. Photo editing by Erica Ackerberg.
Illustration art direction by Tala Safie.
Illustrations by Daniel Barreto.
Text and audio recording of “The More Loving One,” by W.H. Auden, copyright © by the Estate of
W.H. Auden. Reprinted by permission of Curtis Brown, Ltd. Photograph accompanying Auden recording
from Imagno/Getty Images.
Culture
Famous Authors’ Less Famous Books
Literature
‘Romola’ (1863) by George Eliot
Who knew that there’s a major George Eliot novel that neither I nor any of my friends had ever heard of?
“Romola” was Eliot’s fourth novel, published between “The Mill on the Floss” (1860) and “Middlemarch” (1870-71). If my friends and I didn’t get this particular memo, and “Romola” is familiar to every Eliot fan but us, please skip the following.
“Romola” isn’t some fluky misfire better left unmentioned in light of Eliot’s greater work. It’s her only historical novel, set in Florence during the Italian Renaissance. It embraces big subjects like power, religion, art and social upheaval, but it’s not dry or overly intellectual. Its central character is a gifted, freethinking young woman named Romola, who enters a marriage so disastrous as to make Anna Karenina’s look relatively good.
It probably matters that many of Eliot’s other books have been adapted into movies or TV series, with actors like Hugh Dancy, Ben Kingsley, Emily Watson and Rufus Sewell. The BBC may be doing even more than we thought to keep classic literature alive. (In 1924, “Romola” was made into a silent movie starring Lillian Gish. It doesn’t seem to have made much difference.)
Anthony Trollope, among others, loved “Romola.” He did, however, warn Eliot against aiming over her readers’ heads, which may help explain its obscurity.
All I can say, really, is that it’s a mystery why some great books stay with us and others don’t.
‘Quiet Dell’ (2013) by Jayne Anne Phillips
This was an Oprah Book of the Week, which probably disqualifies it from B-side status, but it’s not nearly as well known as Phillips’s debut story collection, “Black Tickets” (1979), or her most recent novel, “Night Watch” (2023), which won her a long-overdue Pulitzer Prize.
Phillips has no parallel in her use of potent, stylized language to shine a light into the darkest of corners. In “Quiet Dell,” her only true-crime novel, she’s at the height of her powers, which are particularly apparent when she aims her language laser at horrific events that actually occurred. Her gift for transforming skeevy little lives into what I can only call “Blade Runner” mythology is consistently stunning.
Consider this passage from the opening chapter of “Quiet Dell”:
“Up high the bells are ringing for everyone alive. There are silver and gold and glass bells you can see through, and sleigh bells a hundred years old. My grandmother said there was a whisper for each one dead that year, and a feather drifting for each one waiting to be born.”
The book is full of language like that — and of complex, often chillingly perverse characters. It’s a dark, underrecognized beauty.
‘Solaris’ (1961) by Stanislaw Lem
You could argue that, in America, at least, the Polish writer Stanislaw Lem didn’t produce any A-side novels. You could just as easily argue that that makes all his novels both A-side and B-side.
It’s science fiction. All right?
I love science and speculative fiction, but I know a lot of literary types who take pride in their utter lack of interest in it. I always urge those people to read “Solaris,” which might change their opinions about a vast number of popular books they dismiss as trivial. As far as I know, no one has yet taken me up on that.
“Solaris” involves the crew of a space station continuing the study of an aquatic planet that has long defied analysis by the astrophysicists of Earth. Part of what sets the book apart from a lot of other science-fiction novels is Lem’s respect for enigma. He doesn’t offer contrived explanations in an attempt to seduce readers into suspending disbelief. The crew members start to experience … manifestations? … drawn from their lives and memories. If the planet has any intentions, however, they remain mysterious. All anyone can tell is that their desires and their fears, some of which are summoned from their subconsciousness, are being received and reflected back to them so vividly that it becomes difficult to tell the real from the projected. “Solaris” has the peculiar distinction of having been made into not one but two bad movies. Read the book instead.
‘Fox 8’ (2013) by George Saunders
If one of the most significant living American writers had become hypervisible with his 2017 novel, “Lincoln in the Bardo,” we’d go back and read his earlier work, wouldn’t we? Yes, and we may very well have already done so with the story collections “Tenth of December” (2013) and “Pastoralia” (2000). But what if we hadn’t yet read Saunders’s 2013 novella, “Fox 8,” about an unusually intelligent fox who, by listening to a family from outside their windows at night, has learned to understand, and write, in fox-English?: “One day, walking neer one of your Yuman houses, smelling all the interest with snout, I herd, from inside, the most amazing sound. Turns out, what that sound is, was: the Yuman voice, making werds. They sounded grate! They sounded like prety music! I listened to those music werds until the sun went down.”
Once Saunders became more visible to more of us, we’d want to read a book that ventures into the consciousness of a different species (novels tend to be about human beings), that maps the differences and the overlaps in human and animal consciousness, explores the effects of language on consciousness and is great fun.
We’d all have read it by now — right?
‘Between the Acts’ (1941) by Virginia Woolf
You could argue that Woolf didn’t have any B-sides, and yet it’s hard to deny that more people have read “Mrs. Dalloway” (1925) and “To the Lighthouse” (1927) than have read “The Voyage Out” (1915) or “Monday or Tuesday” (1921). Those, along with “Orlando” (1928) and “The Waves” (1931), are Woolf’s most prominent novels.
Four momentous novels is a considerable number for any writer, even a great one. That said, “Between the Acts,” her last novel, really should be considered the fifth of her significant books. The phrase “embarrassment of riches” comes to mind.
Five great novels by the same author is a lot for any reader to take on. Our reading time is finite. We won’t live long enough to read all the important books, no matter how old we get to be. I don’t expect many readers to be as devoted to Woolf as are the cohort of us who consider her to have been some sort of dark saint of literature and will snatch up any relic we can find. Fanatics like me will have read “Between the Acts” as well as “The Voyage Out,” “Monday or Tuesday” and “Flush” (1933), the story of Elizabeth Barrett Browning’s cocker spaniel. Speaking for myself, I don’t blame anyone who hasn’t gotten to those.
I merely want to add “Between the Acts” to the A-side, lest anyone who’s either new to Woolf or a tourist in Woolf-landia fail to rank it along with the other four contenders.
As briefly as possible: It focuses on an annual village pageant that attempts to convey all of English history in a single evening. The pageant itself interweaves subtly, brilliantly, with the lives of the villagers playing the parts.
It’s one of Woolf’s most lusciously lyrical novels. And it’s a crash course, of sorts, in her genius for conjuring worlds in which the molehill matters as much as the mountain, never mind their differences in size.
It’s also the most accessible of her greatest books. It could work for some as an entry point, in more or less the way William Faulkner’s “As I Lay Dying” (1930) can be the starter book before you go on to “The Sound and the Fury” (1929) or “Absalom, Absalom!” (1936).
As noted, there’s too much for us to read. We do the best we can.
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Culture
6 Poems You Should Know by Heart
Literature
‘Prayer’ (1985) by Galway Kinnell
Whatever happens. Whatever
what is is is what
I want. Only that. But that.
“I typically say Kinnell’s words at the start of my day, as I’m pedaling a traffic-laden path to my office,” says Major Jackson, 57, the author of six books of poetry, including “Razzle Dazzle” (2023). “The poem encourages a calm acceptance of the day’s events but also wants us to embrace the misapprehension and oblivion of life, to avoid probing too deeply for answers to inscrutable questions. I admire what Kinnell does with only 14 words; the repetition of ‘what,’ ‘that’ and ‘is’ would seem to limit the poem’s sentiment but, paradoxically, the poem opens widely to contain all manner of human experience. The three ‘is’es in the middle line give it a symmetry that makes its message feel part of a natural order, and even more convincing. Thanks to the skillful punctuation, pauses and staccato rhythm, a tonal quality of interior reflection emerges. Much like a haiku, it continues after its last words, lingering like the last note played on a piano that slowly fades.”
“Just as I was entering young adulthood, probably slow to claim romantic feelings, a girlfriend copied out a poem by Pablo Neruda and slipped it into an envelope with red lipstick kisses all over it. In turn, I recited this poem. It took me the remainder of that winter to memorize its lines,” says Jackson. “The poem captures the pitch of longing that defines love at its most intense. The speaker in Shakespeare’s most famous sonnet believes the poem creates the beloved, ‘So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, / So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.’ (Sonnet 18). In Rilke’s expressive declarations of yearning, the beloved remains elusive. Wherever the speaker looks or travels, she marks his world by her absence. I find this deeply moving.”
“Clifton faced many obstacles, including cancer, a kidney transplant and the loss of her husband and two of her children. Through it all, she crafted a long career as a pre-eminent American poet,” says Jackson. “Her poem ‘won’t you celebrate with me’ is a war cry, an invitation to share in her victories against life’s persistent challenges. The poem is meaningful to all who have had to stare down death in a hospital or had to bereave the passing of close relations. But, even for those who have yet to mourn life’s vicissitudes, the poem is instructive in cultivating resilience and a persevering attitude. I keep coming back to the image of the speaker’s hands and the spirit of steadying oneself in the face of unspeakable storms. She asks in a perfectly attuned gorgeously metrical line, ‘what did i see to be except myself?’”
‘Sonnet 94’ (1609) by William Shakespeare
They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone,
Unmovèd, cold, and to temptation slow,
They rightly do inherit heaven’s graces
And husband nature’s riches from expense;
They are the lords and owners of their faces,
Others but stewards of their excellence.
The summer’s flower is to the summer sweet,
Though to itself it only live and die;
But if that flower with base infection meet,
The basest weed outbraves his dignity.
For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;
Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.
“It’s one of the moments of Western consciousness,” says Frederick Seidel, 90, the author of more than a dozen collections of poetry, including “So What” (2024). “Shakespeare knows and says what he knows.”
“It trombones magnificent, unbearable sorrow,” says Seidel.
“It’s smartass and bitter and bright,” says Seidel.
These interviews have been edited and condensed.
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