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Even when Arsenio Hall’s show was a hit, ‘everyone wanted it to be something else’

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Even when Arsenio Hall’s show was a hit, ‘everyone wanted it to be something else’

Arsenio Hall speaks onstage during the Emmy Awards on Jan. 15, 2024.

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Kevin Winter/Getty Images North America

As a kid in Cleveland, Arsenio Hall remembers watching The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson and feeling that something was missing. “I could watch … for weeks at a time maybe never see a minority perform,” he says.

Hall yearned to create something different: “My dream was to one day grow up and show the other side of show business,” he says. “I wanted to do this show that didn’t exist when I was a kid. … I wanted those things that Johnny didn’t do.”

The Arsenio Hall Show, which ran from 1989 until 1994, delivered just that. At its peak, the show was syndicated on nearly 200 stations, running second in the late-night ratings to Hall’s idol, Carson.

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Some of the most indelible moments in American culture happened on Hall’s set. In 1991, Magic Johnson chose the show as the first place to speak after announcing his HIV diagnosis. That same year, a 6-year-old Bruno Mars won a week of free groceries after performing his Elvis impression on the show. And Bill Clinton famously played his saxophone on set during the run-up to the 1992 presidential election.

But Hall says he faced criticism on multiple fronts: White audiences thought the show was too Black, while Black audiences accused the show of not being Black enough.

“In America, you’re never gonna be No. 1 if you have this insatiable desire to do Toni Braxton instead of Dolly Parton,” Hall explains. “And by the way, I tried to do both. I would try to mix it up; I would put Dolly Parton on and then have something for the culture after it.”

In 1994, Hall decided to walk away: “I realized I couldn’t go any higher, and I was gonna lose my affiliates when [David] Letterman came into the game. And the CBS affiliates were very important to my strength, my success, and my profits. … I always said, when I end it, I want to go out on the top,” he says.

Hall’s new memoir is Arsenio.

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Interview highlights

Arsenio & Marla Kell Brown at the staff PJ party on stage 29

Arsenio Hall and executive producer Marla Kell Brown pose during the show’s staff PJ party.

Simon & Schuster


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On why his stage had couches instead of the desk that other late-night shows used 

Marla Kell Brown, my partner in crime, the executive producer, partner of the show … she had seen me do stand-up, and she talked about how I moved, and how free I was. She wanted me to be able to get up, to touch a guest, to decide to sit next to a guest. She felt — and she was right — the desk was this shield. This desk was something I was hiding behind. This desk was protective. And she wanted to take it away from me. When I took over for Joan Rivers, they let me host The Joan Rivers Show when she quit. And she had a desk. So at Fox, I’m sitting behind the Joan Rivers’ desk, and Marla said, “Why don’t you try it without the desk? I think you’ll like it. I would love to see you without that desk.” And we tried it. I had to admit she’s right, and the rest is history. I have to listen to Marla more often. …

It worked really well. When I watched it the first time, I knew it. To be able to lean into a guest and not have something between you. I remember doing an interview with Rosie Perez … [and] I held her hand during the interview because she was nervous. I remember an interview where Diana Ross kissed me. You can’t kiss me with the desk in between us. It created a different visual of a show and it became a thing.

On Magic Johnson‘s 1991 appearance, in which he talked about his HIV diagnosis

I call him Earv, Magic Johnson. He was a friend. And he called me because I had been worried about him. … And one of the things I remember most is he was afraid of losing friends, losing the love of friends and family. I remember the sentence, “I want people to still give me my hugs,” because Magic is a warm and fuzzy guy, and he’s that guy. I hugged him to show him I love him and I care.

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I had heard a comic do an AIDS joke. And it was a very homophobic type joke. … We were so ignorant. We didn’t even know the rules of how you get it. And there were basketball players who didn’t want to play with Magic. So I think God gave me that hug or the inspiration to do that, to show people we don’t have to be afraid. …

I asked Earvin to go on Larry King or do Mike Wallace or something. I was like, “No, man, I can’t do that interview. You know me, I’m a crier. … You need a serious platform, dude. You need a journalist. I’m a comedian and infotainment late night guy.” And he says, “No I need you. I need to come there. I need come where I’m comfortable, because I’ve got to talk to the nation. And I’ve gotta give them my point of view. And I want to do it where I am comfortable.” So the point guard ran the play, and I just followed. And like he did in basketball, he makes everybody better.

On his angry reaction to being heckled by activists from Queer Nation in 1990 

I think you become more angry and you become stronger when you realize you are right, because a huge part of my staff was gay, many of my guests were gay, but it was at a time when you didn’t always know it. So the gay people on my show couldn’t even come to my defense. Ellen [DeGeneres] couldn’t come and say, “Oh, wait a minute, you guys don’t know.” … And Rosie [O’Donnell] was on the show a lot and a lot of people that may be still in the closet, so I won’t mention their names, but, it wasn’t my job to say, “Ladies and gentlemen, balladeer and homosexual, put your hands together …” It wasn’t my job to introduce a singer that way.

I think part of my anger was at that point [was] I’m being told by the Black community that it ain’t Black enough. I’m being told by the Paramount executives that it ain’t white enough. And now the gay community is gonna attack me during the show? You’re gonna take money out of my wallet and food off my family’s plate? In the middle of my job here, when you don’t know what you’re talking about? You’re gonna blame me for something that is absolutely not true? I think I was sick of being criticized by everyone because everyone wanted it to be something else. It’s hard being the first Black anything in late night.

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On the success of his show 

I changed the culture in a way that I exposed America to some things they might not have seen if I didn’t come along then. If I came along now, it would be irrelevant. Everybody would now be gathering to watch Hammer, or this little Bruno Mars, or the Magic Johnson announcement. Timing is also very important. Talent is important. Hard work is important. But timing — if I came along 10 years before that, or if I came a long 10 years from now, it wouldn’t work. And that’s what’s really cool about life. Sometimes it’s the timing that matters.

Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez Wisler produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Clare Lombardo adapted it for the web.

Lifestyle

How to Plan Your Wedding: Budgeting, Venues, Dress Codes and More

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How to Plan Your Wedding: Budgeting, Venues, Dress Codes and More

Planning a wedding can feel overwhelming, but we’re here to help. However you choose to celebrate it should reflect who you are as individuals and as a couple. This guide breaks tasks into simple quarterly steps so you can stay organized while enjoying the process.

Let’s jump in!

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On Highway 78, I watched the valleys awaken in vibrant blooms — a dramatic springtime show

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On Highway 78, I watched the valleys awaken in vibrant blooms — a dramatic springtime show

In early spring, the California mountain town of Julian sits suspended between seasons. At more than 4,000 feet, up in the Cuyamaca Mountains, it rests among coastal live oak woodlands and Coulter pine forests. Snow sometimes dusts the surrounding slopes, melting by afternoon into damp earth as manzanita and mountain lilac begin to flower. Along Main Street, the mingled scents of woodsmoke and apple pie drift from storefronts.

It is here that my journey along State Route 78 begins, following its long eastward descent from the mountain forest into the stark badlands of Anza-Borrego Desert State Park, then skirting the southern edge of the Salton Sea, crossing the Algodones Dunes and continuing toward the Colorado River — a 140-mile corridor spanning one of the most dramatic ecological transitions across public lands in the American Southwest.

This road trip continues a series exploring California’s overlooked scenic highways, inspired in part by artist Earl Thollander’s “Back Roads of California,” whose sketches and travel notes celebrated a slower way of seeing. After tracing Highway 127 along the edge of Death Valley, the journey now shifts south.

Julian Cafe and Bakery, the start of the trip off Route 78.

(Josh Jackson)

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Within minutes of leaving town, the pavement twists downward through tight turns and steep grades as the mountain air begins to warm, the vegetation giving way to chaparral and scattered juniper, then to the stark silhouettes of ocotillo and Mojave yucca. By the time it reaches the Pacific Crest Trail crossing 12 miles east of Julian, travelers have already descended nearly 2,000 feet.

Here, the highway passes quietly into Anza-Borrego, homeland of the Kumeyaay, Cahuilla and Cupeño peoples. At nearly 650,000 acres — just smaller than Yosemite — the park unfolds as a vast mosaic of mountains, badlands and open desert valleys extending far beyond the reach of the pavement.

Wildflowers along the route.

Wildflowers along the route.

(Josh Jackson)

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Bri Fordem, executive director of the Anza-Borrego Foundation, said the landscape reveals itself slowly to first-time visitors. “I think a lot of people drive right by it and go, ‘Oh yeah, there’s a desert there,’” she said. “But when you stop and you go a little slower and take a closer look, a whole world opens up.”

That invitation begins at mile 18, where the Yaqui Pass Road turnoff leads northeast toward the desert basin and the gateway community of Borrego Springs. The 2.8-mile Borrego Palm Canyon Trail offers one of the park’s most accessible routes into the desert’s interior. Cholla gardens and brittlebush rise from pale alluvial slopes, and a seasonal stream leads to one of California’s few native fan palm oases.

In wet winters, the valleys beyond town awaken in color as sand verbena, desert sunflower, evening primrose and pincushion gather in brief, luminous blooms across the desert floor. The Anza-Borrego Foundation tracks these seasonal displays and offers guidance on how to witness them responsibly.

The short detour returns to Highway 78 along Borrego Springs Road, where the pavement drops abruptly through the Texas Dip near mile 27 — a stark, cinematic wash where scenes from the closing sequence of “One Battle After Another” were filmed. Wandering through the wash, the mind drifts not to the film but to the flash floods that move through this channel after heavy rains, sudden torrents cutting and reshaping the valley floor in a matter of hours.

Ocotillo plants rise up from the desert floor in Anza-Borrego Desert State Park.

Ocotillo plants rise up from the desert floor in Anza-Borrego Desert State Park.

(Josh Jackson)

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The sun hangs in the middle of the sky as I drive toward one of the most rapidly changing shorelines in California. From almost any vantage point, the Salton Sea appears lifeless — a gray expanse rimmed with salt and windblown dust. But at its southern terminus, that impression begins to shift. The basin gathers into shallow wetlands where movement returns to the landscape.

Sixty miles from Julian, I turn onto Bannister Road and bump north along a gravel track for three miles into the basin, to a parking lot 164 feet below sea level. The lot sits within Unit 1 of the Sonny Bono Salton Sea National Wildlife Refuge. A short walk along an irrigation canal leads to a weathered observation deck rising two stories above a patchwork of saturated flats where saltgrass, iodine bush and cattail take root. Here, the Pacific Flyway compresses into a living mosaic of wings, water and soil. Each spring, hundreds of thousands of birds gather here to feed and rest before lifting north again, following migratory paths far older than the farms and highways that now define the valley.

The wetlands near the Salton Sea provide a vital habitat for fish and birds.

The wetlands near the Salton Sea provide a vital habitat for birds.

(Josh Jackson)

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The place overwhelms the senses: a wash of emerald against open sky, thousands of snow geese honking in chorus, orange-crowned warblers and Abert’s towhees singing in the trees, and the persistent tang of salt in the air.

I meet three birders standing quietly on the platform, scanning the horizon through binoculars and recounting the 73 avian species they had tallied over the last two days — burrowing owls, American avocets, sandhill cranes and black-necked stilts among them. For 30 minutes we watch a northern harrier on the hunt, dive-bombing blue-winged and cinnamon teal, though he always comes up empty. Between scans of the horizon, we bond over “Listers,” the 2025 documentary that turns obsessive birdwatching into both comedy and a tale of devotion.

A burrowing owl stands in the Sonny Bono Salton Sea National Wildlife Refuge.

A burrowing owl stands in the Sonny Bono Salton Sea National Wildlife Refuge.

(Josh Jackson)

Leaving the refuge, the vibrant color palette and moisture give way to muted browns and the returning austerity of desert air. By mile 97, the road rises to the Hugh T. Osborne Overlook, where the landscape shifts once again, opening into a vast ocean of sand.

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The Algodones Dunes stretch toward the horizon in pale, wind-sculpted ridges, a narrow ribbon of shifting terrain running south into Mexico. The highway passes directly through their center.

From the overlook, the road reads as a line dividing two expressions of the same dune system. To the south lie the Bureau of Land Management’s Imperial Sand Dunes, where dune buggies and motorcycles trace arcs across bare slopes. North of the pavement, the North Algodones Dunes Wilderness holds a quieter terrain, where sunflower, ephedra and honey mesquite anchor the sand in subtle defiance of the wind.

A person walks along the Algodones Dunes.

A person walks along the Algodones Dunes.

(Josh Jackson)

Here the road becomes a boundary between different ways of moving through — and loving — the same landscape: speed and stillness, noise and silence, crowds and solitude.

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By late afternoon, the final miles carry me east toward the Colorado River, where it meanders past willow and cottonwood. The light softened toward sunset, an evening echo of the same violet sky that hovered over Julian at the start of the day. After 140 miles, my road trip had come to an end. Yet as I pitched my tent that night, the motion of the landscapes lingered in mind.

The Colorado continued its long course south. Snow geese lifted north from refuge marshes. Wind reshaped the dunes, erasing the day’s tracks. Wildflowers that had briefly lit the desert floor would soon fade as heat gathered strength. The road ended, but the living systems it crossed moved steadily onward, already turning toward the next season.

Road trip planner: State Route 78

Highway 78 illustrated map.

Highway 78 illustrated map.

(Illustrated map by Noah Smith)

The route: Julian to Palo Verde.

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Distance: 140 miles (one way).

Drive time: 3 hours straight through; allow a full day for stops.

Best time to go: October through April. Summer temperatures frequently exceed 110 degrees.

Fuel and essentials:

  • Julian (Mile 0): Gas station, Julian Market and Deli, lots of restaurants.
  • Borrego Springs (Mile 18): Gas station, groceries, cafes.
  • Brawley (Mile 74): Gas station, restaurants.

Eat and drink:

Camping:

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Lodging:

Hike and explore:

Safety notes:

  • Water: Carry at least 1 gallon per person per day.
  • Connectivity: Cell service is dependable along the route.
  • Wildlife: Watch for bighorn sheep and coyotes on the road, especially at dawn and dusk.
    Wildflowers along Highway 78.

    Wildflowers along Highway 78.

    (Josh Jackson)

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A music festival booked Kanye West, now known as Ye, and lost major sponsors

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A music festival booked Kanye West, now known as Ye, and lost major sponsors

Rapper and producer Ye, also known as Kanye West, seen before a 2025 concert in Shanghai.

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Hector Retamal/AFP via Getty Images

Sponsors are exiting a major U.K. music festival and the country’s prime minister has been critical after the influential rapper Ye was announced as the event’s headliner.

The once widely revered musician and fashion impresario, formerly known as Kanye West, has gained notoriety over the years for his antisemitic comments and activities glorifying Nazis, including a 2025 song called “Heil Hitler” and selling swastika T-shirts on his clothing site.

Yet organizers announced last week that West would headline the Wireless Festival in North London for the entirety of its three-night run in July, invoking outrage from politicians and withdrawals from festival sponsors. Those include Diageo, the company that owns popular liquor brands such as Johnnie Walker and Captain Morgan.

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In a statement emailed to NPR, Diageo confirmed that it will no longer sponsor the 2026 festival “as it stands.”

Pepsi, another company that reportedly pulled sponsorship, did not respond to NPR’s request for comment, nor did the Festival Republic team handling publicity for the shows. However, Pepsi confirmed to The Associated Press and others that it was withdrawing from its lead sponsor role.

The festival, which plays in Finsbury Park, is a major rap and hiphop event in the U.K. that draws tens of thousands of attendees each year.

British Prime Minister Keir Starmer was among those expressing distaste for the headliner selection. “It is deeply concerning Kanye West has been booked to perform at Wireless despite his previous antisemitic remarks and celebration of Nazism,” he told the newspaper The Sun on Sunday. “Antisemitism in any form is abhorrent and must be confronted firmly wherever it appears. Everyone has a responsibility to ensure Britain is a place where Jewish people feel safe.”

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Earlier this year, the artist took out a full-page ad in The Wall Street Journal in which he apologized for his antisemitic behavior — not for the first time. Ye has attributed his outbursts to manic episodes due to bipolar disorder. He has not commented publicly on the Wireless Festival controversy.

The musician is attempting to resuscitate his once-storied career. He recently sold out two shows in Los Angeles following the release of his new album Bully, which debuted at number two on the Billboard 200 charts.

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