Redbox’s field service technicians thought they had seen it all.
Technology
Why Redbox has been powering down
Stores had unplugged thousands of the company’s iconic red DVD rental kiosks. Payroll and expense reimbursements had been late. Several employees say their corporate gas cards have been declined. They had read article after article about companies suing Redbox and its corporate parent over unpaid bills. Some of them had dug into financial data, puzzling together an alarming picture of a company drowning in debt. Still, the email they got on a Tuesday in mid-June came as a shock.
“Please stop what you are doing and return home immediately,” the message read, adding: “You will be paid for the rest of the day.”
The sudden work stoppage initially appeared to be due to liability issues. Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment, which had acquired Redbox in August of 2022, had informed employees earlier that day that it had been dropped by its health insurance provider; Redbox management seemingly didn’t want to have uninsured workers in the field to service and repair the company’s kiosks.
However, a follow-up email revealed deeper concerns. “We have entered an unforeseen and unprecedented situation for our company,” a senior Redbox manager wrote. The email referenced Chicken Soup’s inability to service its massive debt, as well as its CEO’s sudden decision to push out the entire board of directors. “It is disrupting our day-to-day operation, and we are temporarily halting all field activity until we have clarity on our path forward,” the email added.
Management telling hundreds of employees to stop working out of an apparent frustration with a company’s leadership is unprecedented – but it wasn’t surprising to former employees we spoke to at Redbox. The company has been on a dizzying rollercoaster ride ever since getting acquired two years ago. After failing to pay numerous bills, Redbox and its owner have been sued over a dozen times by companies, including CVS, 7-Eleven, and NBCUniversal.
When asked about the numerous lawsuits, Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment’s corporate communications SVP, Peter Binazeski, told me in March that the company could not comment on ongoing litigation; the company did not respond to a number of follow-up questions about its legal and financial situation.
Attempts to settle with NBCUniversal failed after Chicken Soup missed a required $4 million payment, and Redbox is on the verge of having its entire car fleet repossessed.
So, how did things go so wrong for Redbox? I’ve spent months pouring over lawsuits, regulatory filings, and internal emails, as well as talking to a number of current and former Redbox employees, to find an answer to that question. Many of those conversations took on increasing urgency in June, when, in a matter of weeks, people’s worries shifted from wondering whether they’d have a job by the end of the year to whether there would be a paycheck by the end of the week. And when the paychecks finally stopped coming, employees realized that this may be the end for the last major company to still rent out DVDs.
And it could be: Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment filed for bankruptcy at the end of June.
Things actually appeared to be looking up when Redbox was acquired two years ago. Sure, Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment seemed like an odd company to make this move, but there was a plausible backstory here: after the self-help book publisher was sold by its founders in 2008, the company’s new owners began to diversify its revenue streams, adding digital media properties and lifestyle products like pet food. Chicken Soup acquired a bunch of companies over the following years, including the film distribution outlet Screen Media and the pioneering free streaming service Crackle. Chicken Soup’s leadership painted the addition of Redbox as the next step in its quest to build an entertainment media empire.
Building that empire on the back of DVD rentals is not as crazy as it sounds. Netflix shipped DVD rentals to customers for 25 years and used the proceeds from that perpetually shrinking but highly profitable business to become the global streaming juggernaut that it is today. Redbox, founded in 2002, had long been a similar powerhouse in the DVD space, with consumers renting more than 6 billion discs to date. Chicken Soup planned to follow Netflix’s playbook, with CEO Bill Rouhana telling The Verge’s David Pierce last year that Redbox’s kiosks “could be the cash flow machine that allowed us to build out our digital business over the next decade.”
“The first few months were decent,” acknowledged a Redbox employee who spoke to The Verge on the condition that we do not publish their name for fear of retaliation. But soon, warning signs started to pop up. Chicken Soup’s stock price tanked in early 2023 and never recovered. There were some irregularities with paychecks being late. Then, stores started to pull the plugs on kiosks.
“When 7-Eleven pulled our machines, that was huge”
“When 7-Eleven pulled our machines, that was huge,” recalled a second Redbox employee, also speaking on the condition of anonymity. “That was our first big [warning] sign.”
The convenience store chain had Redbox kiosks in front of its stores nationwide, and Redbox was contractually obligated to pay 7-Eleven a percentage of the fees it got from every single rental. A lawsuit filed by 7-Eleven in June alleges Redbox stopped paying those fees last spring. 7-Eleven terminated its contract with Redbox in August of 2023 and demanded that the company pick up its kiosks but says Redbox never did. As a result, 7-Eleven franchisees began to unplug the machines and tape credit card readers shut. Countless inoperable kiosks remain in front of 7-Eleven stores to this day.
7-Eleven wasn’t the only retailer that had a falling-out with Redbox. CVS alleged in a February lawsuit that Redbox stopped paying commissions in Q3 of 2022. Illinois-based chain Sheetz stopped getting payments at the end of 2022, according to its own lawsuit filed in February. Publix pulled all kiosks sometime last year. Kroger began telling customers last month that its Redbox kiosks would stop working soon, and Portland-based Hannaford said it wouldn’t offer access to Redbox anymore by mid-June.
Redbox has not commented publicly on the lawsuits.
Company employees were left in the dark about these rifts. “[We would] find out by working in the field, and there’s a big sign on there that says: ‘As of May 20th, this Redbox is gone,’” said the first employee. “And we’re like: ‘All right, somebody else is suing us.’”
Among the companies suing Redbox and its corporate parent is Automotive Rentals, Inc., or ARI, from which Redbox leases over 400 SUVs and other cars for its service technicians. ARI alleges in its lawsuit that Redbox stopped paying its monthly leasing fees last September; the company terminated its lease agreement with Redbox in March and finally sued in May, alleging that it was owed $7.8 million in unpaid bills.
In a legal filing, Chicken Soup’s lawyers acknowledged the failed payments, writing that “defendants do not dispute that they owe Plaintiffs money — though there is significant question about how much.” The filing goes on to state that the company had “every intention of making Plaintiffs whole” as soon as it raised the necessary financing to do so.
Redbox employees didn’t initially know about this dispute, either, but they realized something was wrong when they suddenly weren’t able to receive routine maintenance services from ARI anymore. “We couldn’t get anything done,” said the first employee. This included oil changes. “I drive a lot, almost a thousand miles a week,” the employee said. “I’m almost 20,000 miles overdue.”
“There’s people who are 18,000 miles over getting [their] oil change done because [the company] can’t pay for it,” said the second employee. The problem apparently became so acute this spring that some employees were told they should just go out, buy some motor oil, and top off their cars themselves.
“I’m not popping that hood,” said the first employee. “I am not putting new oil in old oil. That is a no.”
It’s easy to dismiss Redbox as a relic of a bygone era. A company that’s survived long past its prime. The kiosk version of Blockbuster, destined to fail sooner rather than later.
Well before the Chicken Soup acquisition, Redbox leadership realized that times were changing, with people transitioning from physical media to streaming. “Everyone knew that this was eventually going to go away,” said a former Redbox executive, who spoke on the condition that we don’t publish their name as they are still employed in the industry. But they also saw that DVDs had a surprising staying power, especially with less wealthy and less connected consumers. Forty million people still rented physical discs from Redbox kiosks before the pandemic, according to the company’s leadership at the time.
Especially in smaller towns, Redbox kiosks represented a valuable lifeline. “A lot of rural areas don’t have the luxury of high-speed internet,” said the first Redbox employee. “Our kiosk is the only theater in town.” Multiple employees told me that they were often greeted on the street, with people asking about new releases or cheering them on when they fixed a kiosk that had been broken. “People [in these areas] really can’t afford four or five different streaming services,” said the second Redbox employee.
“Our kiosk is the only theater in town.”
Even so, Redbox executives were working on a digital future. Redbox tried to establish a Netflix competitor in partnership with Verizon in 2012 but shuttered the service two years later. In early 2020, Redbox tried again with a free, ad-supported streaming service that seemed a better fit for its lower-income customers and their slow transition to digital media. Redbox customers were late adopters, so executives believed that they had some time to grow the new digital service while renting out DVDs for years to come.
Then, the pandemic happened — and instantly blew up those plans.
With theaters shut down, productions put on hold, and consumers cooped up at home, Hollywood scrambled. Major studios threw out their release schedule and prioritized their own streaming ventures. Disney postponed the theatrical release of Mulan for months, only to eventually take it directly to Disney Plus. Warner Bros. released all of its 2021 movies on HBO Max.
The number of new releases at kiosks nosedived as a result. “Throughout the first three quarters of 2021, Redbox released 33 theatrical titles at the kiosk, which is typically what would have been released in one quarter pre-COVID,” the company told investors in late 2021. With few new discs in kiosks and some of the biggest titles going directly to streaming, even Redbox’s late-adopter customer base began to give Netflix and Disney Plus a look.
“The pandemic screwed everything up”
“There was deep concern” about this trend internally, according to the former Redbox executive, with some fearing that the company may lose its customers for good to the digital competition. “There was almost no way of bringing them back,” the former executive said.
The results on Redbox’s bottom line were disastrous: the company’s revenue declined from $829 million in 2019 to $546 million in 2020, and then to $289 million in 2021. “It happened really fast,” said the former Redbox executive.
“The pandemic screwed everything up,” said the first Redbox employee.
In the midst of that pandemic-fueled freefall, Redbox was facing corporate upheaval. Redbox’s owner at the time, private equity giant Apollo, began to look at ways to unload the asset. Discussions with Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment began in early 2020, and the two companies signed a term sheet in November of that year. However, the deal ultimately fell apart, with Apollo opting for another route: it decided to take Redbox public via a SPAC merger.
SPACs were still all the rage back then, and Redbox seemed like the perfect candidate for meme stock traders looking to hype another company steeped in nostalgia. Chicken Soup’s management, however, thought the public offering was doomed to fail. “Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment’s plan was merely waiting for Redbox to implode,” alleged Keith Knee, a former consultant for Chicken Soup, in a lawsuit filed earlier this year.
“They are going to be back, and we are going to be able to get this company for two-thirds of what they are asking for right now,” Chicken Soup CEO Bill Rouhana allegedly told his chief strategy officer, according to the lawsuit.
Rouhana was right: the public offering quickly devolved into a disaster. Redbox’s stock price tumbled below $2 per share just four months after it went public, and the company went on to lay off 10 percent of its staff. That’s when Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment swooped back in, offering “a substantially lower price for essentially the same assets,” according to the Knee lawsuit. Redbox couldn’t afford to say no anymore, and the two companies announced that Chicken Soup would acquire the DVD kiosk company in May of 2022.
Chicken Soup took on $325 million in debt as part of the acquisition, but CEO Bill Rouhana promised everyone a quick turnaround. Revenues of the new combined company were supposed to total $500 million in 2022, and Rouhana painted himself as a buccaneer of sorts, capable of righting the ship amid rough seas.
“The industry is completely chaotic right now,” Rouhana told me when I interviewed him days after the acquisition closed in August of 2022. “It’s a total nightmare. It’s completely in a state of flux. I’m pretty comfortable with that because I believe in the value of the stuff we bought.” Rouhana told me that Redbox kiosks would be around another 10 to 20 years and that Chicken Soup would recoup its money “many times over” before they ultimately disappeared. He kept insisting that he was unmoved by any short-term challenges.
“I love chaos,” Rouhana said.
Soon, the chaos engulfed Redbox. Instead of the promised $500 million, Chicken Soup only generated $253 million in revenue in 2022. The number of DVD kiosks operated by the company declined from 36,000 at the time of the acquisition to 27,000 at the end of March. The pandemic-induced movie shortage, combined with a declining number of kiosks, led to continued revenue decline. Already loaded with debt, Chicken Soup quickly ran out of money. Attempts to raise more working capital failed, which only made things worse.
“Our inability to secure […] financing […] hampered our ability to pay for and secure new content, which began to strain relationships with the Company’s creditors, including content providers,” Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment wrote in its most recent quarterly report. “As a result, the Company was unable to pay for all the movies that were offered to it by its providers.”
In reality, Redbox hasn’t been able to buy any major new release for quite some time. The last high-profile movie that made it to kiosks is Barbie, which came out on DVD in October. And with no new titles at kiosks, rental revenue has declined even further. In the first three months of this year, Chicken Soup’s revenue from its Redbox retail operations was just $15.5 million — less than half what it was a year ago and just a quarter of what it had been even in early 2021 when the pandemic slowed DVD releases to a trickle.
At the same time, Chicken Soup’s financial situation spiraled. The company ended Q1 with an accumulated deficit of $937 million and less than $5 million in cash on hand. It has been falling further behind on its bills, resulting in former business partners cutting ties and filing lawsuits.
“The Company has received an increasing number of termination and/or nonrenewal notices from content suppliers and other service providers,” Chicken Soup warned in its Q1 filing.
Internally, the situation quickly devolved. Corporate credit cards that employees have been using to get gas for their cars have only been working intermittently, leaving field service employees unable to do their work for a whole week in May. “They paid us to sit at home and look at emails,” the first employee said. “We weren’t servicing anything,” the second employee added.
That in itself is a problem for the company: A little-known fact about Redbox’s business is that the company’s technicians also service kiosks for Amazon, KeyMe, Pokémon, and other kiosk vendors. Employees told me that the company would bill these companies for each individual service call. “It was a highly profitable part of the business,” said the former Redbox executive. “It’s what kept us afloat,” said the second employee.
However, when employees weren’t able to go out and service these kiosks, Redbox wasn’t making any money. What’s more, not servicing third-party kiosks in time put those business relationships at risk. This month, longtime partner ecoATM stopped working with the company, according to multiple Redbox employees.
Things got worse for Redbox and its employees in June. At the beginning of the month, a court granted ARI’s request to repossess all of the cars Redbox has been leasing from the company. In an email sent days later, Redbox told employees to remove all their personal belongings from the company cars and prepare for the worst. “In the unlikely event that your vehicle is targeted for repossession, comply with all demands and turn over keys immediately,” the email read. In late June, the court followed up with an order that directed the US Marshals Service to seize Redbox’s entire leased fleet of 437 cars.
In mid-June, the company also informed employees via email that it had been dropped by its healthcare provider, and they hadn’t been covered since May. It’s the second time Redbox employees suddenly found themselves without healthcare coverage: at the beginning of this year, Redbox employees discovered that the company-provided health insurance had lapsed in December when Redbox out of the blue switched their health plans to a new provider. The change left employees without coverage for weeks and many with massive bills. Multiple employees told me that their claims eventually got paid, but another employee said that some claims went to collection.
This time around, the company advised employees to proactively watch their healthcare expenses: “We recommend all elective, non-urgent and routine medical appointments be rescheduled,” a company representative wrote in an email to employees. For some, that warning came too late. Multiple employees told me about ongoing medical treatments that could, if not covered by their insurance, bankrupt them personally.
While asking its employees to watch their expenses, the company itself ran out of cash to meet its most basic obligations. It failed to make payroll in mid-June, with Rouhana promising employees in an email that they would get paid five days late, as the company was “finalizing a financing.” That day came and went, but instead of a check, employees got another email from the CEO. The financing hadn’t closed yet, Rouhana wrote, but he “hoped to fund payroll” the following week — 10 days after paychecks were due.
Attempts to raise $175 million this spring failed, resulting in Chicken Soup for the Soul Entertainment defaulting on debt held by its biggest creditor. Raising more money from public market investors is also a long shot: Chicken Soup’s shares have been trading in penny-stock territory, with Nasdaq threatening to delist the company.
“We appreciate your patience and understanding as we work towards resolution,” Rouhana wrote in his first email following the missed pay date. It was his first companywide email in many months, according to multiple Redbox employees.
That lack of communication has been especially frustrating to employees. “I wish I could just know what’s going on,” said the first Redbox employee.
Absent any communication about the company’s future, Redbox employees have banded together in group chats to share the little they know with each other. One employee even paid to get access to legal filings to better understand the financial issue.
“I wish I could just know what’s going on”
At first, these group chats were small, including just a handful of people here and there. When things boiled over in mid-June, employees created a group dedicated to Redbox’s “final days” that has since grown to around 350 members.
“People are posting any articles they can find that might help bring some light to what’s going on,” said a third Redbox employee with access to the group, who spoke to The Verge under the conditions that we do not name them in this story for fear of retaliation. “Some are starting to reminisce about the good times,” that employee said, but many simply use the group to express their frustration with the situation. “A lot of bitching all day,” the employee quipped.
Then, late Friday, the company sent out an email to employees to inform them that it had filed for bankruptcy. On Monday, they once again heard from Rouhana, who revealed that he was no longer the company’s CEO. His replacement, corporate compliance specialist Bart M. Schwartz, had “an extensive background in helping companies in complex situations,” Rouhana proclaimed. Schwartz emailed employees an hour later to promise that his top priority was their health insurance and compensation.
Redbox’s rank and file don’t seem convinced that help is on the way. On Monday, they started their own GoFundMe for unpaid employees. Any money raised with the campaign will be “disbursed throughout the company minus the owner / CEO,” according to the GoFundMe page.
The company’s field service fleet, meanwhile, remains grounded. A week after first calling the company’s entire field service workforce home, Redbox management told them via email that work would remain paused until Redbox’s parent company met its payroll, reimbursement, and healthcare coverage obligations. All of that hinges on the company securing a special loan that allows bankrupt companies to keep operating.
Some employees I talked to doubt that there will be a job to return to — a sentiment that’s increasingly bubbling up in public. Redbox’s social media accounts have been happily posting through the entire crisis, publishing memes and movie trivia as if nothing had happened — until the company’s dire reality became too hard to ignore.
“Describe your life right now using one movie gif,” tweeted the official Redbox account in late June, days after the company failed to make payroll.
“Here’s mine,” the tweet continued, followed by a GIF of the sinking Titanic.
Technology
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Technology
How Florida retiree lost $200K in fake PayPal refund scam
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Brian Oliver is retired, sharp and financially savvy enough to have a stock-and-bond portfolio worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. He is not the type of person you picture getting scammed. That is exactly why scammers picked him.
What happened to Oliver, 85, is the kind of story that makes your jaw drop, and your stomach turn at the same time. It started with a routine-looking email and ended with a box of gold coins rolling away in the back of a black Mustang. In between, Oliver lost $200,000 and nearly half of his retirement savings.
He told his story on my Beyond Connected podcast at getbeyondconnected.com, along with Detective Justin Torres of the Gainesville Police Department in Florida. What they shared together is equal parts chilling and clarifying.
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BEWARE FAKE CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT RESTRICTION SCAMS
Brian Oliver shares how a routine-looking email pulled him into a sophisticated refund scam that cost him $200,000. (Sebastian Gollnow/picture alliance)
It all started with a PayPal refund scam email
Brian got an email that said PayPal owed him money. It was not a wild claim. He had dealt with PayPal before and figured, “Maybe they found some money for me.” So he responded. The email included a phone number, and that number connected him to a man who called himself Andrew Johnson.
“Yeah, we have $450 for you. Type in the number 100 on your computer and we’ll get it started.”
Brian typed 100. Andrew immediately said he had made a mistake: “Oh no, you put in 10,000.”
Brian pushed back. He said he did not type 10,000. Andrew told him to check his Bank of America account. Brian opened it, and there it was: $10,000 sitting in his checking account.
Except it was not real. The scammers had somehow mirrored his bank’s website. What Brian saw looked exactly like his actual Bank of America page, complete with a new balance and a phone number embedded in the “Contact Us” section. That number was fake, too.
Brian called it. A man named Josh answered, identifying himself as a Bank of America representative. He told Brian that the only way to return the money without triggering a $3,500 tax penalty was to withdraw $10,000 in cash and feed it into a crypto ATM.
How the PayPal refund scam tricked Brian
Oliver had never heard of a crypto ATM before that day. Josh helpfully told him exactly where to find one. It was in a sketchy part of town, and Oliver walked in carrying $10,000 in his pocket.
“I’m on my knees, on a cement floor, and I’m 85,” Oliver said.
He fed one hundred $100 bills into the machine, bill by bill, watching over his shoulder the entire time. Some bills got kicked back out. He fed them in again. When the machine finally accepted all of them, he photographed the receipt and sent it to Andrew Johnson, just as he had been instructed.
Then Oliver went home and told Andrew it was done. Andrew told him they still had to take care of his refund. He told Oliver to type in the number 200.
FAKE PAYPAL EMAIL LET HACKERS ACCESS COMPUTER AND BANK ACCOUNT
Oliver typed it. Andrew’s response came fast: “Oh my God, my boss is going to kill me. It’s $200,000 we’ve transferred to your account.”
This type of scam is becoming more common, and it often involves criminals impersonating trusted platforms like PayPal.
“PayPal does not tolerate fraudulent activity, and we work hard to protect our customers from evolving phishing scams,” a spokesperson for PayPal told CyberGuy. “We always encourage consumers to learn how to spot the warning signs of common fraud, including our tips on the PayPal Newsroom for identifying phishing emails that attempt to impersonate trusted brands. We further recommend contacting Customer Support for assistance through official channels such as the PayPal app and our Contact Us webpage, and never responding to suspicious, unexpected emails.”
How the scam escalated to $200,000 in gold
Oliver opened his bank account again. The fake mirrored site showed $200,000 sitting there. Josh Wilson was back on the phone with a new plan. This time, the crypto ATM would not work because the amount was too large. Oliver needed to liquidate $200,000 from his stock and bond portfolio, convert it to cash and use it to buy gold coins.
Oliver protested. He told them to just reverse the transfer. They said it was impossible.
“This is my retirement money. 50% of my retirement money,” he said.
The scammers told him not to breathe a word to anyone. Josh specifically warned him that telling his broker the truth could trigger tax problems. So Oliver called his broker and said he had his eye on a piece of real estate he wanted to flip. The broker processed the sale without question.
YOUTUBE JOB SCAM TEXT: HOW TO SPOT IT FAST
Oliver went to a gold coin store, wrote a check for $198,560 and waited two to three days for it to clear. Andrew Johnson stayed in regular contact the entire time.
When the gold was ready, Johnson gave Oliver one final instruction. A courier would come to his door to pick up the box. Before handing it over, Oliver should ask the courier for a password. The password was “blue.”
The courier arrived. He was driving a black Mustang. He said the word blue. Oliver handed over the box.
“He told me the password,” Oliver said. “I handed the box, and off went my $200,000.”
The moment Brian Oliver realized it was all a scam
The day after the courier left, Andrew Johnson called back with urgency. He told Brian Oliver another $200,000 had landed in his account, and they needed to do the whole thing over again. That was the moment it broke.
“That’s when I came out from under the ether of this scam,” Oliver said. “And I said, this cannot be right.”
He immediately called the Gainesville Police Department.
The high-stakes sting that brought down a scam courier
Detective Justin Torres of the Gainesville Police Department took the call and started working the case immediately. The scammers had asked Oliver for photos of the gold and the purchase receipt, which gave law enforcement about a day and a half to set up an operation before the courier was scheduled to return.
Detective Torres pulled in four officers from the department’s Gun Violence Initiative unit, a team of intermediate detectives trained for exactly this kind of boots-on-ground work. They set up covert and marked vehicles around Oliver’s residence at a careful distance.
“It was pretty high intensity because I’m listening to Mr. Oliver’s conversation with Andrew,” Torres said. “And I’m also trying to be a good distance away to listen to my radio and be able to broadcast what I need to to the other officers on the outside.”
The scammers were suspicious. They kept pushing Oliver to be more compliant. Oliver pushed back. The goal was to keep them on the line long enough for the courier to show up. The courier, a man named Seth Wayne, drove in from Tampa. The officers waited. When he arrived, they arrested him. The case went to trial. Seth Wayne received an 18-year prison sentence.
A federal jury has since convicted a second courier in the same scheme. Atharva Shailesh Sathawane, 22, an undocumented immigrant from India, was found guilty of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and money laundering, with Brian Oliver among his victims.
Sathawane was arrested after the Gainesville Police Department set up a second sting operation at Brian’s home. Court documents showed Sathawane was involved in more than 30 transactions across multiple states, contributing to nearly $8 million stolen from elderly victims. He faces up to 20 years on each count, with sentencing scheduled for Dec. 16 in Gainesville, though he is appealing his conviction.
How refund scams are hitting multiple victims
The scam began with a convincing message and quickly escalated as criminals guided Brian Oliver step by step through fake account activity. (Halfpoint/iStock/Getty Images)
Ten other victims testified at Seth Wayne’s trial. They had come from all over the state of Florida, and their stories made Oliver furious.
Some had received fake arrest warrants, official-looking documents claiming their identities had been tied to gun running. They were told the only way to clear their names was to pull their savings and buy gold, which would be placed in a special locker in Washington, D.C., until their names were cleared.
One victim lost $1.8 million. Another lost $4.9 million. A third woman lost over $1 million across two separate pickups by the same courier. Her husband was in hospice care in Florida while all of this was happening. She drained her entire life savings, sold her condo and had to move in with her daughter and son-in-law in Alabama, leaving her dying husband behind.
Where the money from refund scams actually goes
Once the gold or cash leaves a victim’s hands, recovery is nearly impossible. Most of Seth Wayne’s deliveries went to parking lots at McDonald’s or shopping centers, where he handed the money directly to a controller. One pickup went to a jewelry store, where an employee came outside to collect it. That connection is still under active investigation by the IRS and FBI.
The call centers running these operations are overseas. Higher-level couriers in the United States are still being investigated. The full network is, as Detective Torres put it, “very intricate” and “very complicated.”
Seth Wayne himself was a mid-to-upper-level courier. He was also paying other couriers and compensating his handler. When investigators downloaded his cell phone after a judge-approved search warrant, they found evidence that he had researched exactly what he was doing before deciding the money was worth the risk.
SCAMS THAT AREN’T ILLEGAL (BUT SHOULD BE)
The defense of “willful blindness,” the idea that a courier can claim ignorance and escape responsibility, no longer holds up in Florida courts. Seth Wayne found that out the hard way.
For a deeper look at what Oliver went through, you can hear the full story on my Beyond Connected podcast at getbeyondconeccted.com.
How to stay safe from refund scams
Detective Torres laid out the most important red flags clearly, and Oliver added a few from painful personal experience. Here is what both of them want you to know.
1) Hang up on urgency
Scammers manufacture pressure because it works. If someone on the phone is telling you that you must act right now, that is not a real emergency. That is a tactic. Torres put it directly: “They want to make you believe that you have to do all this right now.”
2) Never call the number they give you
If someone calls claiming to be from PayPal, your bank or a law enforcement agency, hang up and find the real number yourself. The number embedded in Oliver’s fake bank website looked completely legitimate. It was not.
3) Pause for ten seconds
Literally ten seconds. Detective Torres confirmed what many security experts say: “If you pause these scams for just 10 seconds, many of them will just fall apart.” A scammer who is pushed back even slightly will often overreact, and that reaction will feel wrong.
4) Isolation is the biggest red flag
The moment someone on the phone tells you not to tell a family member, friend or neighbor what is happening, stop. That instruction exists for one reason: to prevent you from getting help before they get your money. “Once you start hearing that isolation conversation, that is the biggest red flag,” Torres said. “You need to hang up the phone.”
5) Gold is always a scam signal
Oliver made this one simple: “If you’re told to go buy gold, the only reason they tell you to buy gold is because it can never be traced. It’s a scam.” No legitimate company, government agency or financial institution will ever ask you to buy gold coins and hand them to a stranger.
6) The courier at your door means stop
If you have already bought gold and someone is coming to your home to pick it up in a box, Oliver’s advice is direct: “Stop right there. It’s a scam.”
7) Never move money to fix a ‘mistake’
If someone claims they accidentally sent you money and asks you to return it, stop right there. Real companies fix errors on their own systems. They will not ask you to withdraw cash, buy crypto or purchase gold to correct a transaction.
8) Verify your account on your own device
If you need to check your bank account, use your official banking app or type the website yourself. Do not trust links, screens or phone numbers provided during a call. In many cases, scammers create fake sites that look identical to the real thing.
9) Be wary of step-by-step instructions
Scammers often stay on the phone and guide you through every move. That level of control should raise concern. Legitimate companies do not walk you through withdrawing cash, using crypto ATMs or buying gold to solve a problem.
10) Bring in a second person
Before moving a large amount of money, pause and call someone you trust. A quick conversation with a family member or friend can shift your perspective. In many cases, that outside voice is enough to stop a scam in progress.
11) Limit how much of your information is online
Scammers build convincing stories using real details they find online. This can include your phone number, home address or financial history. To reduce that risk, consider removing your information from data broker and people-search sites. While you can do this manually, it often takes time, which is why some people use a data removal service such as Incogni to help automate the process and keep their information from resurfacing.
Check out my top picks for data removal services and get a free scan to find out if your personal information is already out on the web by visiting Cyberguy.com.
Get a free scan to find out if your personal information is already out on the web: Cyberguy.com.
Scammers often operate behind the scenes, using technology and social engineering to manipulate victims into handing over cash or valuables. (Paul Chinn/The San Francisco Chronicle/Getty Images)
Kurt’s key takeaways
Brian Oliver lost $200,000, leaving him with only half of his retirement savings. Today, he says he is slowly sinking toward bankruptcy, and the odds of getting that money back are slim. Even so, he chose to go public so others could hear his story before it happens to them. What makes this case different is that it led to real consequences. Detective Torres and his team moved quickly and set up a sting operation. As a result, they arrested a courier who later received an 18-year prison sentence. Meanwhile, the IRS and FBI are still investigating the larger network. However, this kind of outcome is rare. In most cases, victims lose everything and never see justice. These scams are complex, often run from overseas, and are designed to move money fast. Because of that, law enforcement usually focuses on the people closest to the victim and works backward. In the end, Oliver’s turning point came during a second demand for money. At that moment, something felt off, so he paused. Then he said, “This cannot be right.” That instinct matters. In many cases, that brief pause is enough to break the scam.
If you were in Oliver’s position, at what exact moment do you think you would have stopped, and what would it have taken for you to make that call? Let us know by writing to us at Cyberguy.com.
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Technology
BEWARE SOFTWARE BRAIN
Today on Decoder, I want to lay out an idea that’s been banging around my head for weeks now as we’ve been reporting on AI and having conversations here on this show. I’ve been calling it software brain, and it’s a particular way of seeing the world that fits everything into algorithms, databases and loops — software.
Software brain is powerful stuff. It’s a way of thinking that basically created our modern world. Marc Andreessen, the literal embodiment of software brain, called it in 2011 when he wrote the piece “Why software is eating the world” as an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal. But software thinking has been turbocharged by AI in a way that I think helps explain the enormous gap between how excited the tech industry is about the technology and how regular people are growing to dislike it more and more over time.
In fact, the polling on this is so strong, I think it’s fair to say that a lot of people hate AI. And Gen Z in particular seems to hate AI more and more as they encounter it. There’s that NBC News poll showing AI with worse favorability than ICE and only a little bit above the war in Iran and the Democrats generally. That’s with nearly two thirds of respondents saying they used ChatGPT or Copilot in the last month. Quinnipiac just found that over half of Americans think AI will do more harm than good, while more than 80 percent of people were either very concerned or somewhat concerned about the technology. Only 35 percent of people were excited about it.
Poll after poll shows that Gen Z uses AI the most and has the most negative feelings about it. A recent Gallup poll found that only 18 percent of Gen Z was hopeful about AI, down from an already-bad 27 percent last year. At the same time, anger is growing: 31 percent of those Gen Z respondents said they feel angry about AI, up from 22 percent last year.
Now, I obviously talk to a lot of tech executives and policy people here on Decoder, and I will tell you, they all know AI isn’t popular, and they can all see how that’s playing out in real life. Here’s Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella talking about how the tech industry needs to make the case for the investments it’s making in AI:
Satya Nadella: At the end of the day, I think this industry, to which I belong, needs to earn the social permission to consume energy because we’re doing good in the world.
I think it’s safe to say that the tech industry and AI have not earned any of that social permission yet. Politicians from both sides of the aisle are opposing data center buildouts. Politicians in local communities that support data centers are getting voted out of office. And in the most depressing reminder of how much political violence has become a part of everyday American life, politicians who’ve supported data centers have had their houses shot at. OpenAI CEO Sam Altman has had Molotov cocktails thrown at his house.
It’s sad that I’m going to have to say this again on the show, and it’s sad that we’re going to have commenters who disagree, but this violence is unacceptable. If you want to meaningfully oppose AI in a way that lasts, you should speak loudly with your dollars in the market and your attention online, and you should speak loudly with your votes. You should participate in a democratic regulatory and political process. Anything else will get dismissed and perpetuate the cycle. That dismissal is already happening.
I also think it’s incredibly important for our politicians and tech executives to make sure our political process makes people feel empowered, not helpless, which is a specific kind of nihilism they have all greatly contributed to. The violence is a result of that helplessness and nihilism. And the most powerful people in our society ought to reckon with that, especially as they run around saying AI will wipe out all the jobs. I’m not even exaggerating this. Here’s Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei saying he thinks AI will wipe out all the jobs:
Dario Amodei: Entry-level jobs in areas like finance, consulting, tech and many other areas like that —- entry-level white-collar work — I worry that those things are going to be first augmented, but before long replaced by AI systems. We may indeed —- it’s hard to predict the future — but we may indeed have a serious employment crisis on our hands as the pipeline for this early-stage, white-collar work starts to contract and dry up.
What I see when I encounter clips like this is the true gap between the tech industry and regular people when it comes to AI — and also the limit of software brain. Like I said, everyone in tech understands how much regular people dislike AI. What I think they’re missing is why. They think this is a marketing problem. OpenAI just spent $200 million on the TBPN podcast because the company thinks it will help make people like AI more. Sam Altman has said so explicitly:
Sam Altman: Oh, they are genius marketers and I would love to have better marketing. Somebody said to me recently that if AI were a political candidate, it would be the least popular political candidate in history. And given the amazing things AI can do, I think there’s got to be better marketing for AI.
It feels like someone just needs to say this clearly, so I’m just going to do it. AI doesn’t have a marketing problem. People experience these tools every single day. ChatGPT has 900 million weekly users, trending to a billion, and everyone has seen AI Overviews in Google Search and massive amounts of slop on their feeds. You can’t advertise people out of reacting to their own experiences. This is a fundamental disconnect between how tech people with software brains see the world and how regular people are living their lives.
Image: The Verge
So what is software brain? The simplest definition I’ve come up with is that it’s when you see the whole world as a series of databases that can be controlled with structured language and software code. Like I said, this is a powerful way of seeing things. So much of our lives run through databases, and a bunch of important companies have been built around maintaining those databases and providing access to them.
Zillow is a database of houses. Uber is a database of cars and riders. YouTube is a database of videos. The Verge’s website is a database of stories. You can go on and on and on. Once you start seeing the world as a bunch of databases, it’s a small jump to feeling like you can control everything if you can just control the data.
But that doesn’t always work. Here’s an example: Elon Musk and DOGE showed up in the government, and the first thing they did was take control of a bunch of databases. And they ran into the undeniable fact that the databases aren’t reality, and DOGE ended in hilarious failure. It turns out software brain has a limit, and the government isn’t software. People aren’t computers, and they don’t live in automatable loops that can be neatly captured in databases.
Anyone who’s actually ever run a database knows this. At some point, the database stops matching reality. And at that point, we usually end up tweaking the database, not the world. The AI industry has fully lost sight of this. AI thrives on data. It’s just software. And so the ask is for more and more of us to conform our lives to the database, not the other way around.
Let me offer you another example that I think about all the time, especially as AI finds real fit as a business tool. It’s the idea that AI is coming for lawyers and the legal system. The AI industry loves to talk about not needing lawyers anymore, which is already getting all kinds of people into all kinds of trouble. But I get it. I’ve spent a lot of time with lawyers. I used to be a lawyer. My wife is still a lawyer. Some of my best friends are lawyers.

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I also spend all of my time at work talking to tech people. And so over time, I’ve learned that the overlap between software brain and lawyer brain is very, very deep. Alluringly deep. If the heart of software brain is the idea that thinking in the structured language of code can make things happen in the real world, well, the heart of lawyer brain is that thinking in the structured legal language of statutes and citations can also make things happen. Hell, it can give you power over society.
There are other commonalities. Both software development and the law depend heavily on precedent. We have a body of case law in this country, and we use it over and over again to help us resolve disputes. Much like software engineers have libraries of code that they turn to repeatedly to build the foundations of their products. I can go on.
At the end of the day, both lawyers and engineers do their best to use formal, structured language to guide the behavior of complicated systems in predictable and potentially profitable ways. I am far from the first person with this idea. Larry Lessig wrote a book called Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace in 2000. It’s just as relevant today as it was a quarter century ago.
And so you have this intoxicating similarity between law and code, and it trips people up all the time. People are constantly trying to issue commands to society at large like it’s a computer that will obey instructions. There are examples of this big and small. My favorite are those Facebook forwards insisting Mark Zuckerberg does not have the right to publish people’s photos. Honestly, I look at these, and I think it would be great if the law was actually code. Maybe things would be more predictable. Maybe we’d feel more in control.
But law isn’t actually code, and society and courts aren’t computers. I have to remind our fairly technical audience on Decoder and at The Verge all the time that the law is not deterministic. You simply cannot take the facts of a case, the law as written, and predict the outcome of that case with any real certainty, even though the formality of the legal system makes people think it works like a computer, that it’s predictable.
Because at the end of the day, it’s actually ambiguity that’s at the very heart of our legal system. It’s ambiguity that makes lawyers lawyers. Honestly, it’s ambiguity that makes people hate lawyers because it’s always possible to argue the other side, and it’s always possible to find the gray area in the law. That’s why prosecutors end up working as defense attorneys and why our regulators tend to end up working for big corporations.
So you can see the obvious collision between software brain and lawyer brain. This thing that looks like a computer isn’t actually anything at all like a computer. A lot of people even argue that the law should be more like a computer, that the system should be verifiable and consistent, and that merely issuing the right commands at the right times should lead to objectively correct outcomes.
Bridget McCormack, who used to be the chief justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, was on Decoder a few months ago pitching a fully automated AI arbitration system. Her argument to me was that people perceive the traditional legal system to be so unfair, they will accept a worse outcome from an automated system as more fair as long as they feel heard. And if there’s one thing AI can do, it’s sit there and listen all day and night. I don’t know if any of that is correct or even workable, but I do know software brain, and that is pure software brain. The idea that we can force the real world to act like a computer and then have AI issue that computer instructions.
You can see the same thing happening in every other kind of industry. You don’t hire a big consulting firm to actually come in and study your business and make it more efficient. You hire them to make slide decks that justify layoffs to your board and shareholders. Big consulting firms are great at this, and now they’re just going to generate those decks with AI. They are already doing this and the layoffs have already begun.
Any business process that looks like code talking to a database in a repetitive way is up for grabs. That’s why Anthropic has been so relentlessly focused on enterprise customers, and it’s why OpenAI is now pivoting to business use. There’s real value in introducing AI to business because so much of modern business is already software, collecting data, analyzing it, and taking action on it over and over again in a loop. Businesses also control their data, and they can demand that all their databases work together. In this way, software brain has ruled the business world for a long time. And AI has made it easier than ever for more people to make more software than ever before, for every kind of business to automate big chunks of itself with software. The absolute cutting edge of advertising and marketing is automation with AI. It’s not being in creative.
But not everything is a business, not everything is a loop, and the entire human experience cannot be captured in a database. That’s the limit of software brain. That’s why people hate AI. It flattens them. Regular people don’t see the opportunity to write code as an opportunity at all. The people do not yearn for automation. I’m a full-on smart home sicko; the lights and shades and climate controls of this house are automated in dozens of ways. But huge companies like Apple, Google and Amazon have struggled for over a decade now to make regular people care about smart home automation at all. And they just don’t.
AI isn’t going to fix that. Most people are not collecting data about every single thing that they do. And if they’re collecting any at all, it’s stored across lots of different systems — your email in Gmail, your messages in iMessage, your work schedule in Outlook, your workouts in Peloton. Those systems don’t talk to each other and maybe they never will, because there’s no reason for them to. And asking people to connect them all freaks them out.
Even taking the time to consider how much of your life is captured in databases makes people unhappy. No one wants to be surveilled constantly, and especially not in a way that makes tech companies even more powerful. But getting everything in a database so software can see it is a preoccupation of the AI industry. It’s why all the meeting systems have AI note takers in them now. It’s why Canva, which is design software, now connects to corporate email systems. My friend Ezra Klein just went to Silicon Valley, and he described the people that are actively trying to flatten themselves into a database:
Ezra Klein: You might think that A.I. types in Silicon Valley, flush with cash, are on top of the world right now. I found them notably insecure. They think the A.I. age has arrived and its winners and losers will be determined, in part, by speed of adoption. The argument is simple enough: The advantages of working atop an army of A.I. assistants and coders will compound over time, and to begin that process now is to launch yourself far ahead of your competition later. And so they are racing one another to fully integrate A.I. into their lives and into their companies. But that doesn’t just mean using A.I. It means making themselves legible to the A.I.
You can give it access to everything that’s there: your files, your email, your calendar, your messages. It operates continuously in the background, building a persistent memory of your preferences and patterns so it can better act on your behalf. The cybersecurity risks are glaring, but there’s a reason millions of people are using it: The more of your life you open to A.I., the more valuable the A.I. becomes.
I’ve reviewed a lot of tech products over the past decade and a half, and all I can tell you is that it is a failure when you ask people to adapt to computers. Computers should adapt to people. And asking people to make themselves more legible to software, to turn themselves into a database, is a doomed idea. It’s an ask so big, I can’t imagine a reward that would make it worth it for anyone, even if the tech industry wasn’t constantly talking about how AI will eliminate all the jobs, require a wholesale rethinking of the social contract and — oops — also the latest models might cause catastrophic cybersecurity problems that might lead to the end of the world.
Does this sound like a good deal to you? Can you market your way out of this? This only makes sense if you have software brain, if your operative framework is to flatten everything into databases that you can control with structured language. The people paying thousands of dollars a month to set up swarms of OpenClaw agents and write thousands of lines of code, they’re people who look at the world and see opportunities for automation, to repeat tasks, to collect data, to build software. AI is great for them. It’s even exciting in ways that I think are important and will probably change our relationship to computers forever.
For everyone else, AI is just a demanding slop monster. It’s a threat. I’m not saying regular people don’t use Excel or Airtable to plan their weddings or have fun throwing PowerPoint parties, or even that AI won’t be useful to regular people over time. I think a lot of people enjoy data and tracking different parts of their lives. There’s my WHOOP band. I’m just saying these things aren’t everything. Not everything about our lives can be measured and automated and optimized. It shouldn’t be.
And so the tech industry is rushing forward to put AI everywhere at enormous cost — energy, emissions, manufacturing capacity, the ability to buy RAM — and locked into the narrow framework of software brain without realizing they are also asking people to be fundamentally less human. They then sit around wondering why everyone hates them. I don’t think a couple haircuts are going to fix it.
Questions or comments about this episode? Hit us up at decoder@theverge.com. We really do read every email!
Decoder with Nilay Patel
A podcast from The Verge about big ideas and other problems.
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