DAVE DAVIES, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies. Terry’s off this week. Robert Caro has made a lot of his life’s work chronicling the profession and lifetime of Lyndon Johnson. On this President’s Day, we’ll hear again to 2 interviews I’ve recorded with Caro. He is written 4 books about Johnson. And for the final a number of years, he is been engaged on the fifth and ultimate deliberate quantity of this biography, which is able to cowl the years in the course of the Vietnam Battle.

Within the earlier volumes, Caro gave us some memorable photos from Johnson’s life – rising up poor within the Texas Hill Nation, blackmailing a fellow pupil to win a school election and as a congressman, humiliating loyal aides for the enjoyable of it, in addition to openly stealing votes to get into the Senate. Caro additionally described a Johnson who, as a younger man, labored lengthy hours instructing poor Mexican American kids in South Texas and who believed passionately in authorities’s obligation to assist individuals.

I first spoke to Robert Caro in 2013 about his fourth quantity, “The Passage Of Energy,” protecting the years 1958 to 1964. It included Johnson’s vice presidency, his sudden ascension to the White Home after the Kennedy assassination and Johnson’s outstanding success within the first few months of his administration to get historic civil rights laws by means of Congress. John Kennedy, Caro argued, merely would not have been capable of do what Johnson did to advance social justice and financial equality in America. Robert Caro is a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner. “The Passage Of Energy” received the Nationwide E-book Award and the Nationwide E-book Critics Circle Award.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

DAVIES: Robert Caro, welcome to FRESH AIR. In 1960, Lyndon Johnson was the bulk chief of the U.S. Senate, probably the most highly effective males within the nation. And in your third quantity, you write about how he had mastered the legislative course of. He sought his celebration’s presidential nomination in 1960, misplaced it to John Kennedy. What was his relationship with Jack Kennedy and the Kennedy group, the Kennedy clan, after that marketing campaign?

ROBERT CARO: Effectively, with Jack Kennedy, there was at all times this kind of, I might say, cautious respect. The essential factor with Lyndon Johnson and the Kennedys was his relation with Robert Kennedy. And there was an actual hatred there. You already know, as a author, Dave, you hate to make use of sure phrases as a result of they sound too loaded, and certainly one of them is hate. However hate is not too robust a phrase to explain the connection between Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy. So when Johnson is Jack Kennedy’s vice chairman, which is a powerless place, Robert Kennedy makes certain that he would not have any energy and that, the truth is, he systematically units out to humiliate Johnson and does in the course of the three years of his vice presidency.

DAVIES: Yeah. Within the e book, you – there are some nice descriptions of a few of his early encounters with Robert Kennedy, when Kennedy was a Senate staffer. And, yeah, this relationship was poisoned from the start. You already know, Lyndon Johnson, you recognize, thought significantly about whether or not he ought to settle for the vice presidential nomination again then. The vice presidency, I feel, lacked a few of the visibility it does in the present day. It was thought of a lifeless finish.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: He took it and had ambitions of constructing it one thing as a result of he was a man who knew – understood energy and thought he may do extra with it. What was he capable of do? What was his standing? How was he handled by the Kennedy crew as vice chairman?

CARO: Effectively, you recognize, on the very starting, he tries a typical Lyndon Johnson maneuver to get extra energy than any vice chairman has had earlier than. He drafts and offers to Jack Kennedy to signal, maybe considering he wasn’t – Kennedy wasn’t going to learn it totally sufficient, an government order which might have, in impact, given Johnson energy over quite a lot of authorities companies. However Kennedy, after all, handles it – simply kind of ignores it in a really swish approach. And Johnson realizes – he says, you recognize, that younger man is quite a bit smarter than I assumed he was and quite a bit harder, too. Then Johnson tries one other maneuver. He tries to maintain management of the Senate Democrats, though he is now vice chairman – he is now not majority chief. They will not have that.

And hastily, he has no energy. This man, the mighty majority chief, probably the most highly effective Democrat within the nation for the final six years, has no energy in any respect. And the Kennedys do not give him any. And he is actually lowered for 3 years to being a powerless determine, a ridiculed determine. You already know, they used to name him – the Kennedys mocked him. They known as him Rufus Cornpone or Uncle Cornpone. They even had a nickname for him and Ladybird. They stated Uncle Cornpone and his little pork chop. That is the best way Johnson was regarded by them.

DAVIES: They did not say this stuff to his face.

CARO: Effectively, these specific phrases I do not assume had been ever used to his face, however he knew they had been utilizing it as a result of it was within the Washington gossip columns and reporters had been reporting that. And, you recognize, the massive headline in 1963, earlier than the assassination – and a number of newspapers had been doing analytical articles about Lyndon Johnson. And you recognize what the headline was on all of them? No matter occurred to Lyndon Johnson? He has grow to be a determine of ridicule.

DAVIES: In a city that he would simply – held a lot sway at over only a few years earlier.

CARO: Precisely.

DAVIES: After which that day in November, in Dallas – November 22, 1963, in Dallas, adjustments every thing.

CARO: Sure. And the crack of – sure.

DAVIES: Yeah. Now, Johnson was within the presidential motorcade in Dallas, not within the automotive that carried the president and Texas Governor John Connally and their wives. He was some automobiles again. What did he see and expertise?

CARO: There are three – the primary – within the first automotive, Jack Kennedy is driving with Jackie, and the governor of Texas, John Connally, a really good-looking man with a leonine head of white hair, is driving together with his spouse, Nellie Connally, a fantastic girl, as soon as the lover of the College of Texas. Within the automotive behind them is a Secret Service automotive. It is so closely armored, it is known as the Queen Mary. And there are 4 brokers on the working board. And inside there are extra brokers with their computerized rifles hid on the ground.

Then there is a 75-foot hole. The Secret Service insisted on that. After which there’s Lyndon Johnson’s automotive. He’s within the again seat. On the suitable hand aspect within the heart is Ladybird. On the left is the Texas senator, Ralph Yarborough. And within the entrance subsequent to the driving force is a Secret Service agent named Rufus Youngblood.

When the primary shot rings out, individuals assume it is a bike backfiring, or they assume somebody burst a balloon. It is fascinating. John Connally informed me, however I used to be a hunter. I knew the second I heard that shot, it was from a searching rifle. Because the shot sounds, Youngblood seems – the Secret Service agent seems ahead and sees Kennedy kind of falling to the left. He whirls round and immediately he grabs Johnson’s proper shoulder and simply pushes him down on the again flooring of the again seat of the automotive, jumps over the again of the entrance seat and lays on high of Lyndon Johnson.

And Johnson can hear over Youngblood’s radio that related him to the opposite Secret Service brokers phrases like, he is hit. He is hit. Let’s get out of right here – hospital. And the three automobiles – Kennedy’s, the Secret Service brokers’ and Johnson’s – roar up a ramp to an expressway, roar down the expressway, after which off and into the emergency bay of Parkland Hospital.

Youngblood says to Johnson, after we get to that hospital, do not go searching, do not cease. We’ll get you to a safe place. Do not go searching and cease. Johnson is yanked out of the automotive by 4 Secret Service males and run in that hospital down one hall, to the left of the hall, to the suitable, on the lookout for a safe place till they discover one.

DAVIES: After which he quickly learns that Kennedy is lifeless and that he’s at that second president. And, you recognize, one of many fascinating elements of the story is that at that second when he goes to Texas to accompany the president on this go to to his residence state – virtually on the immediate of the assassination, you inform us – there have been occasions happening in Washington, in – and New York which threatened Lyndon Johnson’s very profession. Let’s simply give attention to these for a second.

CARO: It is virtually unbelievably dramatic by way of the time sequence. There was a scandal in Washington. Lyndon Johnson’s aide for years had been a person named Bobby Baker. The Bobby Baker scandal, which concerned kickbacks and payoffs and that kind of factor, had put Baker on the entrance cowl of Life, of Time, of Newsweek, actually each journal within the nation. The magazines would consult with him as Lyndon’s boy. He was often called Little Lyndon in Washington. However no one had related Lyndon Johnson to the Bobby Baker scandal.

On the very second that morning again in Washington, in a closed little room within the Senate workplace constructing, the person who was going to attach Johnson to that scandal, a person named Don Reynolds, was testifying earlier than Senate investigators, and he was pushing throughout the desk to them the checks and the invoices that will show that Lyndon Johnson was concerned within the Bobby Baker scandal, which was the large scandal of that point. At – he was doing this at roughly the time that the motorcade was going by means of Dallas and the photographs rang out.

And one other factor was taking place at that very same second. Life Journal had for the primary time – nobody had ever seemed into Lyndon Johnson’s fortune. You already know, he had come to Washington as a really poor boy, very poor younger congressman, and he had grow to be very wealthy. Life Journal was planning to run a narrative on that fortune – they had been going to name it one thing like “Lyndon’s Cash” – that very subsequent week. And the editors and reporters concerned had been in the meanwhile of the assassination assembly to debate that article. So Johnson’s profession was hanging by as tenuous a thread because it ever hung in the meanwhile of the motorcade in Dallas.

DAVIES: All proper. So going again to Dallas.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: He is at Parkland Hospital.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: He learns that the president is lifeless and…

CARO: Effectively, he would not study for about 45 minutes, Dave. The Secret Service brokers lastly discover a safe room. It is within the – what they name the Parkland Hospital minor drugs part. They put the – it is a room divided into three cubicles by hanging white sheets – such as you see in hospital – muslin curtains. They put Johnson within the again room in opposition to a wall, they usually draw the blinds over the home windows. Proper in entrance of Johnson is Rufus Youngblood, the Secret Service agent. Within the center room – center cubicle – there are two Secret Service brokers. And on the door, Youngblood stations one other one with the directions, do not let any human being previous you until you personally know his face.

Johnson stands there. They carry in a chair for Girl Hen, and Ladybird sits down subsequent to Lyndon in opposition to that wall. They carry in a chair for Johnson, however he doesn’t sit down. He stands there, and it is actually – we do not know, actually, on the time – 40 or 45 minutes. He retains asking, you recognize, about Kennedy, has Youngblood ship somebody out to ask how Kennedy is. The one phrase that comes again, Dave, is that the medical doctors are nonetheless engaged on the president. Then after about 40 minutes – as I say, it is laborious to get an actual time – Kenny O’Donnell – who was certainly one of Kennedy’s aides, who had been campaigning with him all his life – walks into the room. And Girl Hen Johnson was to say, seeing the stricken face of Kenny O’Donnell, who liked him, we knew. And a second later, one other Kennedy aide runs into the room, runs over to Johnson and addresses him as Mr. President. That is the primary time anybody’s known as him that or that he actually is aware of that he is president.

DAVIES: Robert Caro, recorded in 2013, speaking concerning the fourth quantity of his biography of President Lyndon Johnson titled “The Passage Of Energy.” We’ll hear extra after a break. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF LOUIS SCLAVIS’ “FETE FORAINE”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR. And we’re listening to my 2013 interview with journalist and biographer Robert Caro following the publication of the fourth quantity of his biography of President Lyndon Johnson titled “The Passage Of Energy.”

So in Dallas in 1963, Johnson is out of the blue the president, and there are lots of selections that must rapidly be made, logistical selections about, does he return with Jackie on Air Pressure One? The place and beneath what circumstances is the swearing in? – a complete lot of issues. However as you stroll us by means of these occasions, you say that many, many individuals discover that it appears to be a unique Lyndon Johnson. How?

CARO: Sure. I am glad you picked out that time. You already know, Johnson, in the course of the vice presidency, had been so humiliated that he had a hangdog look. His shoulders slumped. He had misplaced a number of weight. He was downcast. Have you learnt, individuals at all times stated about Lyndon Johnson, he was at all times – if he had a chilly, you’ll assume he had pneumonia. He at all times complained about each little factor. However they stated – and Girl Hen stated it – if there is a powerful time, Lyndon is an effective man to have in your aspect. And as he is standing there on this little cubicle for about 40 minutes, questioning what destiny has in retailer for him, they see a change in Johnson again to the outdated Lyndon Johnson, who ran the Senate as nobody has ever run it earlier than.

Girl Hen stated his face became a graven bronze picture, and the Secret Service males come working in after he is informed that Kennedy’s lifeless. And so they say to him, we’ve got to get you again to Washington. The White Home is the place we will preserve you safe. Keep in mind, Dave; nobody is aware of if it is a conspiracy or not. Not solely the president was shot, however the governor of Texas was shot. And we’re solely 13 months away from the Cuban missile disaster the place we virtually had a nuclear – had been on the verge of a nuclear confrontation with Russia. Nobody is aware of if it is a conspiracy after Johnson. So they are saying, we acquired to get you again to the airplane and the airplane has to take off instantly for Washington.

Johnson instantly is decisive. No, he says, I am not leaving this hospital with out Mrs. Kennedy. They are saying, properly, she will not go away with out her husband’s physique. Johnson says, then we’ll go to Air Pressure One, however we’ll wait there for her to reach with the physique. And that is what occurs. And on the airplane, he has to – you recognize, it is very fascinating. They are saying in the present day that 11 weeks, the time between Election Day and the inauguration, is simply too quick a time for a president to get able to assume the numerous duties and duties of the workplace.

Lyndon Johnson’s transition interval was two hours and 6 minutes. He takes the oath of workplace on Air Pressure One. And two hours and 6 minutes later, the size of the flight, he has to get off and be president of the US. And also you see him on the airplane taking cost of the nation, doing the steps which might be essential to preserve it calm and guarantee it that though the president has been murdered, authorities is beneath management.

DAVIES: Proper. I imply, there are such a lot of selections of logistics. There are selections of substance and selections of symbolism. And it was clear one factor that he wanted to do was to affiliate himself with the fallen president. He wished Jackie in that picture…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …The place he is taking the oath.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: He returns to workplace. And it was unthinkable, I suppose, to maneuver into the White Home and the Oval Workplace at that second, which was stuffed with President Kennedy’s private results. He goes to the Government Workplace Constructing, the place he had lengthy labored.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: However he will get very busy. And it is fascinating even in these few days over which the funeral happens and the assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald, you recognize, by Jack Ruby happens. Johnson is busy. Now, when does he start enthusiastic about his legislative agenda?

CARO: Effectively, you recognize, Kennedy had two vitally necessary payments which had been in Congress on the time of his loss of life. One was the civil rights invoice. The civil rights motion was raging by means of the streets of the South. It was desperately essential to get a civil rights invoice by means of Congress. However the Southern Democrats managed Congress, they usually had stopped that invoice chilly. It wasn’t going anyplace. He had additionally – his different nice piece of – main piece of laws was a tax lower invoice wanted to get the financial system going as a result of the unemployment fee, Dave, was rising towards a very unacceptable 5%. And other people could not stand that.

However Congress had stopped each these payments. Johnson has to present his first speech to Congress on the Wednesday after the assassination to the joint session of Congress. The night time earlier than the speech, he is nonetheless – he is not within the White Home but. He is nonetheless in his residence in Spring Valley. And 4 or 5 of his advisers are gathered across the kitchen desk engaged on that speech. And so they all say to Johnson – Johnson walks in, they usually all say, you possibly can’t battle for – you possibly can’t make civil rights a precedence. You’ll be able to’t battle for that on this speech. It will – it is a noble trigger, however it’s a misplaced trigger. You’ll be able to’t win. You’ll be able to’t waste your time on a misplaced trigger.

You already know what Lyndon Johnson says to them? He says, properly, what the hell’s the presidency for then? And within the speech, he says, our first precedence is civil rights. We have talked about civil rights for 100 years. We have talked about it too lengthy. Now it is time to write it into the books of regulation. And he instantly takes form of these two payments and will get them began to passage.

DAVIES: Proper. And there are a number of fascinating conferences and cellphone calls that you just describe that he makes to congressional leaders. He meets with a bunch of governors who occur to be in Washington.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: And, you recognize, they’re an necessary a part of getting stress to their congressional delegations. There was the opposite concern of, may Johnson give a speech? I imply, he was an extremely highly effective man, one to 1. I imply, I really like your descriptions of him grabbing a congressman by the lapel and pointing the finger in his chest. However he wasn’t – he form of missed as a public speaker. How did he put together for this? This was an enormous, massive second for him and the nation.

CARO: And he is aware of he cannot communicate properly in public. I imply, he is identified this all his life. So he is aware of. One of many issues that he does every day is he rushes by means of the speech, you recognize, such as you do if you’re nervous and insecure. I noticed the very – his very studying copy of the speech. You already know what he does? He writes the speeches in, like, one or two sentence paragraphs. Between every paragraph, he writes in handwriting – you possibly can see it on the speech – pause. When he is acquired an necessary level, he writes after it, pause, pause. And he provides this speech, and it’s a nice speech. You already know, we bear in mind it because the speech during which he says about Kennedy’s program, allow us to proceed. Kennedy stated, allow us to start. I say allow us to proceed. So for this one speech, at the least, he’s a powerful speaker.

DAVIES: Robert Caro, recorded in 2013 when the fourth quantity of his biography of Lyndon Johnson was revealed. We’ll hear extra from Caro after a brief break. I am Dave Davies, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RUSS BARENBERG’S “HALLOWEEN REHEARSAL”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies. Terry is off this week. It is President’s Day. And we’re listening to elements of two interviews with Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer Robert Caro, who spent a lot of his profession chronicling the lifetime of Lyndon Johnson. I spoke to Caro in 2013 concerning the fourth quantity of his biography of Johnson titled “The Passage Of Energy.” The e book describes the disrespect and humiliation Johnson felt as vice chairman, the hatred between Johnson and JFK’s brother, Bobby, Johnson’s expertise in Dallas when JFK was assassinated and his ascension to the presidency, the place, Caro writes, he summoned all of his political savvy and expertise to pursue an aggressive legislative agenda.

In some respects, the center of the story right here is Johnson’s outstanding achievements in Congress in the course of the first, I assume, 5 – 6 months of his presidency. Getting the Kennedy tax lower, which was going nowhere, and the civil rights invoice, which had been locked up for many years by…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …You already know, by Democratic leaders within the Senate, notably from the South – properly, and Congress, too. Initially, what did Lyndon Johnson have that Kennedy lacked when it got here to coping with Congress in a basic approach?

CARO: You already know, I take advantage of the phrase in my e book that he was an amazing reader of males. He used to have guidelines for studying males when a brand new aide – when a younger aide got here. And he’d inform them find out how to speak to any individual. He’d say, watch their eyes. Watch their fingers. What they’re telling you with their eyes or their fingers is extra necessary than what they’re telling you with their mouth. He used to say, by no means let a dialog finish as a result of there’s at all times one thing that the person would not wish to inform you. And the longer the dialog goes on, the better it’s so that you can determine what it’s he would not wish to inform you. He had a novel means to know what a person actually wished, what a person actually was afraid of and of taking part in on these fears and people wishes.

I will provide you with an instance. You say, how did he get Kennedy’s civil rights invoice began? The Republicans had been retaining it bottled up within the Home Guidelines Committee, which was chaired by a Southern racist named Howard W. Smith of Virginia – Outdated Decide Smith, they known as him. And so they could not get it out of the Guidelines Committee as a result of there weren’t sufficient votes there to let the Guidelines Committee launch it to the ground of the Home.

Johnson calls within the Republican chief of the Home, Charles Halleck of Indiana. He realizes, listening to Halleck, that what Halleck actually desires is – the biggest employer in his district is Purdue College. And Purdue has constructed new house laboratories. And it isn’t getting as many contracts from NASA, from the Nationwide Aeronautics and Area Administration, because it desires. Johnson calls the administrator of NASA, a person named James Webb, and tells him this and says he desires Halleck to fulfill with him – Webb – and to be happy by what NASA does. Webb says one thing like, properly, I hope when he leaves my workplace, he’ll be completely happy.

Lyndon Johnson, you need to hear his voice. Lyndon Johnson says, no, you do not perceive me. I do not need you to assume he is completely happy. If he is not completely happy when he leaves your workplace, you may be listening to once more from me. Halleck will get what he desires. And the Republicans on the Guidelines Committee vote to let the invoice out. Johnson had a genius with coping with people. He would threaten them or cajole them or allure them, no matter he needed to do to get votes.

DAVIES: And I assume we’ve got to notice for those who have not learn the remainder of the story that when Johnson was, you recognize, a really, very highly effective chief in the US Senate, he cooperated with Southerners in delaying and defeating quite a lot of civil rights payments. However when he had the presidency, he moved on it.

CARO: What I did not say was individuals did not imagine it, as a result of for 20 years earlier than he grew to become president, he – when he was in Congress and within the South, he not solely voted in opposition to each civil rights invoice, he was not only a vote in opposition to civil rights, he was one of many key Southern strategists who devised the technique to defeat these civil rights payments for 20 years.

DAVIES: Proper. And so when, as a brand new president, he begins transferring on civil rights, I am curious how the civil rights leaders of the day – I imply, Martin Luther King and others – regarded Johnson. Did they work collectively?

CARO: Oh, these are terrific questions. They arrive in suspicious. You already know, Johnson at all times wished to fulfill with individuals one-on-one. You already know, they stated about Johnson, one on – a pal of his stated one-on-one, he is the best salesman who ever lived.

So a gaggle of civil rights leaders – Martin Luther King, Roy Wilkins, James Farmer – wish to meet with him. One in every of his secretaries says, ought to I schedule them as a gaggle? He says to her, no, separately. And each has the identical response. I am unable to bear in mind which. I feel it is Roy Wilkins who says this, that he went in there suspicious. After which Johnson pulled up virtually knee-to-knee with me and leaned into my face and informed me how a lot he wished civil rights. And for the primary time, I had actual hope that this invoice was going to move.

DAVIES: I feel you started on the Lyndon Johnson mission – what? – 37 years in the past, in 1976. Does that sound about proper?

(LAUGHTER)

DAVIES: That is what I’ve learn.

CARO: Sadly, it does. Yeah (laughter).

DAVIES: That is what I’ve learn. And as – you recognize, as I learn this quantity, I imply, there are such a lot of instances the place you cite interviews with…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …With the gamers, you recognize, most of whom I am certain are now not with us. And it struck me that you have to have, again within the ’70s and ’80s, carried out, you recognize, dozens – I assume, tons of of prolonged interviews during which you talked to individuals who knew Johnson about the entire story, starting to finish.

CARO: You are proper. I imply, I’ve lately been working with one thing that entails John Connally. And people interviews, you recognize, occurred in 1981. After all, Governor Connally is lengthy lifeless. However at the moment, he had me right down to his ranch. He had an amazing ranch in Floresville, in South Texas.

And he stated to me one thing very – principally, very complimentary about my first e book, and stated he would reply any query that I requested. And, the truth is, he answered each query, besides one, that I requested. And I feel I used to be there 4 days. I imply, we had different interviews. However he talked to me – this man who was, for a very long time, nearer to Lyndon Johnson than anybody else talked to me with the utmost frankness for simply web page after web page that I nonetheless – of interviews that I nonetheless return to.

DAVIES: What is the one query he would not reply?

CARO: What Lyndon Johnson stated about Robert Kennedy. You already know, Lyndon Johnson hated Robert Kennedy. They hated one another with a ardour that is virtually unbelievable. You already know, the primary time that they met was in 1953. Lyndon Johnson was the highly effective Democratic chief of the Senate, this nice energy. Robert Kennedy has simply gone to work. He is a younger junior staffer on the McCarthy committee. Senator…

DAVIES: Joe McCarthy, a senator from Wisconsin. Proper, yeah.

CARO: I am sorry, Sen. Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin. Sen. McCarthy, each morning within the Senate cafeteria, had an enormous – there was an enormous, spherical desk proper close to the cashier’s desk, and he took that desk with 4 or 5 of his staffers each morning. Lyndon Johnson walks in a single morning with two of his staffers, George Reedy and Horace Busby. McCarthy jumps up, as all senators did, and his workers jumps up, deferential to Johnson. Nice job yesterday, Mr. Chief. Do not know the way you probably did it, Mr. Chief. Simply miraculous, Mr. Chief. Something I can do for you, Mr. Chief? Johnson walks across the desk shaking their fingers.

One individual at that desk would not arise. He is this younger staffer, Robert Kennedy. Effectively, Johnson is aware of what to do about that. There was by no means a private encounter that he wasn’t going to win. He kind of stands in entrance of Kennedy together with his proper hand kind of half-extended in order that Kennedy both has to face up and shake it or actually be intentionally, ostentatiously impolite. He has to face up and – I – and take it.

I requested Reedy and Busby, what was the explanation there? And so they gave quite a lot of causes. Johnson had as soon as insulted Kennedy’s father – had a number of – excuse me – had a number of occasions insulted Kennedy’s father, Joe Kennedy. However they stated it was greater than that. And Reedy stated to me – that was Johnson’s press secretary, George Reedy. He stated to me, Bob, did you ever see two unusual canines come right into a room, and hastily they growl, and the hair rises on the again of their necks? That is the best way Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson was. For his or her whole lives, they had been two males who could not stand to take a look at one another.

DAVIES: You write on this quantity that you just’re actually writing not nearly Lyndon Johnson, however about, you recognize, the acquisition and use of energy in the course of the twentieth century.

CARO: As you say, these books are usually not nearly Robert Moses or Lyndon Johnson. They don’t seem to be. I by no means had the slightest curiosity in writing a e book simply to inform the story of a lifetime of an amazing man. What I am focused on is utilizing these lives to point out how political energy works – not the textbook selection, the textbook issues we study in highschool and faculty, however how energy actually works, the uncooked, bare actuality of political energy. The extra that we find out about how political energy actually works, the higher, theoretically, at the least, our votes must be, and the higher our democracy must be.

The one factor I feel I’ve discovered is that you do not actually know the way energy is getting used till years later when papers and paperwork are open and persons are extra keen to speak in interviews. Then, you return, and also you see what was actually taking place. So I am actually – I observe issues in Washington in the present day, however I ponder what I do not know.

(LAUGHTER)

CARO: Now, on this final quantity, I am writing about Vietnam. It may be a lot darker than the opposite volumes. It is – however a lot of the factor – now we’ve got the minutes – or not minutes ‘trigger he would not permit minutes to be taken – however the notes of the conferences on which the Vietnam selections had been made. We are able to see the cable site visitors going forwards and backwards between Washington and Saigon. So most of the issues, I would not say they are not true, however it’s like they’re the – what we learn within the newspapers at the moment was just like the shadow to the substance of what was taking place. Now we see the substance. So I at all times surprise, as I say, what it’s I do not find out about what’s taking place in the present day.

DAVIES: Effectively, Robert Caro, I wish to thanks a lot for spending a while with us. It has been fascinating.

CARO: This was nice. Thanks, Dave.

DAVIES: Robert Caro, recorded in 2013 when the fourth quantity of his biography of Johnson, titled “The Passage Of Energy,” was revealed. I interviewed Caro a second time about his a long time of analysis and writing about Johnson and New York Metropolis energy dealer Robert Moses. We’ll hear that interview after a break. I am Dave Davies, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF AARON NEVILLE SONG, “HOW COULD I HELP BUT LOVE YOU?”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR. At age 87, Robert Caro remains to be engaged on the fifth and ultimate quantity of his biography of Lyndon Johnson concerning the Vietnam Battle. Whereas engaged on the Johnson story, he additionally managed to jot down a brief memoir on his strategies known as “Working, Researching, Interviewing, Writing.” I spoke to Caro about it in 2019. He described transferring to the Texas Hill Nation, the place Johnson grew up, and residing there for 3 years to get to know associates and associates of Johnson in his early years.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

DAVIES: Give me a way of what you heard that was completely different by being there lengthy sufficient to get acclimated and to have individuals get acclimated to you.

CARO: You already know, Lyndon Johnson had been portrayed within the seven earlier books as kind of a Horatio Alger hero of the Hill nation, this fashionable, charismatic man that everyone liked. And he was this fashionable man in school. And he grew to become the congressman. I used to be realizing that they – you recognize, I would say – I would inform these individuals an anecdotal story, certainly one of these tales. And so they’d say, properly, one thing like, properly, that is not fairly what occurred. However they would not – they had been so laconic they would not inform me what had occurred. And there was a turning level for me. The next factor occurred.

I had been interviewing his brother, Sam Houston Johnson. And Sam Houston Johnson – there was a number of braggadocio and bravado and principally untruthfulness in what – his tales. And I had gotten disgusted with interviewing him, and I made a decision, I am not going to make use of something he informed me, and I am not going to spend any extra time on this. So I am working with different individuals. And hastily, I hear he is had this horrible operation for most cancers. And he stopped ingesting.

And at some point, I am strolling round Johnson Metropolis, and there is Sam Houston coming in the direction of me. And he is limping. One leg is shorter than the opposite. He is utilizing a cane now. And I took him for a cup of espresso within the cafe there. And I – the man sitting subsequent to me hastily was a quiet, introspective man. I made a decision to attempt to interview him once more. By this time, I knew the important thing to Lyndon Johnson’s youth was this childhood and his battle together with his father. So I considered a option to make him bear in mind precisely extra precisely what had occurred. I acquired the Nationwide Park Service to agree that I may take him in to the Johnson boyhood residence after the vacationers had been gone.

We went in, and I sat him down on the desk in the identical – on the eating room desk. It was a plank desk. On one aspect, Lyndon’s – on the high was his father, on the underside, his mom. His three sisters sat on one aspect, and Lyndon and Sam Houston Johnson sat on the opposite. And I stated to him, now, Sam – and I bear in mind, Dave, I did not sit on the desk. I did not need something in his sight that would not remind him of his boyhood. So I sat behind him. And I stated, repeat these – a dinnertime dialog together with your father.

He began yelling forwards and backwards, Lyndon, you are a failure. You may at all times be a failure. However what are you, Dad? You are a bus inspector. That is what you might be. And he was shouting forwards and backwards. And I assumed he was now within the – I stated, now, Sam Houston, I need you to inform me once more all these fantastic anecdotes, these fantastic tales, that you just and everybody else informed about your brother for all these years. Solely simply give me some extra particulars.

And there was a pause. After which, Sam Houston stated, I am unable to. And I stated, why not? And he stated, as a result of they by no means occurred. After which, he began, with out some other prompting, to present a very completely different image of Lyndon Johnson’s youth that had ever been – and this time, after I went again to the opposite individuals and stated – and repeat – they stated, that is what occurred, they usually’d give me extra particulars.

DAVIES: And also you discovered that he wasn’t an admired determine. He was a self-centered man who lots of people discovered a ache. Yeah.

CARO: Lots of people discovered ruthless and fearsome, truly.

DAVIES: Untrustworthy…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …Manipulative, all of that. Proper.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: You make the purpose on this e book that fact takes time. Should you’d relied on the opposite books, for those who hadn’t moved there, you would not have gotten to that layer of depth. You discuss interviewing individuals many times…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …And once more…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …Which I feel most reporters do not. You already know, you do it as soon as, after which, you progress on. Give us an instance of how persistence like that made a distinction.

CARO: Effectively, to illustrate you are attempting to – you had been by no means there with Lyndon Johnson. I used to be by no means there with Lyndon Johnson. I wished to present an image of what he was like within the Oval Workplace. What did – what was he bodily – what was taking place? So his chief home adviser was a person named Joseph Califano. He is been an immense assist to me. He is been so affected person and unstinting together with his time. However he used to get so indignant at me. I had a number of interviews with him.

I might say, so Joe, if I had been standing there within the Oval Workplace with you, what would I see? And he stated, what do you imply – first, you recognize, he’d say one thing like, what do you imply, what do I see? I informed you he was sitting on the desk. He’d rise up and stroll round. So I would say once more, properly, when he acquired up and walked round, what would you see, you recognize? He’d say, I informed you that already. He simply walked up and round. What do you count on me to say? I stored asking. He would get indignant at me.

After which, one – he stated, properly, you recognize, he’d go over to the – Lyndon Johnson was so within the information that he had three wire service tickers – the Related Press, United Press and INS – put in within the Oval Workplace on three tickers there. And he stated, properly – he was at all times so – Califano says, properly, he was – he’d at all times go over to these tickers like he could not wait to see. On to the – I would say, no. If I noticed him go over to the tickers, Joe, what would I see? Bob, I informed you. He went over to the tickers. What do you count on – he learn the tickers. I stated, Joe, what would I see?

After which, he out of the blue stated, you recognize what, Bob? I forgot it. Typically he would get so impatient to see what the reporters had been writing that he’d bend over the ticker and take the paper in each fingers as if he wished to drag it out quicker from the ticker. You already know, particulars like that provide help to perceive the persona of somebody.

DAVIES: The depth of the man.

CARO: The depth – the suitable phrase – depth of the man.

DAVIES: Robert Caro, recorded in 2019, speaking about his e book “Working, Researching, Interviewing, Writing.” We’ll hear extra after a brief break. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MICHAEL RIESMAN’S “BODY COUNT”)

DAVIES: That is FRESH AIR. On Presidents Day, we’re speaking with biographer Robert Caro, who’s engaged on the fifth and ultimate quantity of his collection on the lifetime of President Lyndon Johnson. In 2019, I spoke to Caro a couple of quick memoir. He wrote about his strategies. It is known as “Working, Researching, Interviewing, Writing.”

You additionally write about interviewing Lyndon Johnson’s spouse, Girl Hen…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …And having to convey up probably the most delicate topic. I imply, he had extramarital affairs. One in every of them was significant.

CARO: Yeah. Yeah.

DAVIES: Alice Glass.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: You requested her, and – what? – you could not bear to take a look at her.

CARO: Sure. And, you, know, I wasn’t going to enter Lyndon Johnson’s sexual affairs. He had a number of affairs, however none of them appeared to have any affect or significance for the best way he ran – for his skilled life. They did not appear to imply a lot to him. However hastily, I found there was one affair that he had for a very long time, maybe 25 years. I feel the sexual half resulted in two or three years. However she was useful to him ‘trigger he relied on her political recommendation, and nobody had ever heard of her. Her identify was Alice Marsh – Alice Glass after which Alice Marsh.

So I went to the small city that she got here from and discovered about her. And at some point, a mutual pal, a pal who lived on this small city known as Marlin, Texas – it is in slightly city the center of nowhere. Nobody would have gone there until they wished to know – find out about Alice Glass. In the future, this pal of mine calls up from Marlin and says, Hen – in Texas, everybody calls Girl Hen, Hen. Hen is aware of you’ve got been to Marlin, Bob, so she is aware of you recognize about Alice. So I stated, properly, I am unable to do something about that. So the following interview I had together with her – I had been interviewing her in Austin in her workplace. Her secretary stated, she’d like – Mrs. Johnson wish to see you out on the ranch this Saturday. So I went on the market…

DAVIES: So she summoned you for this.

CARO: Sure. So she sits on the head of the desk, and I am sitting at her proper hand. My stenographer’s pocket book, the place I take notes, is to my proper hand. So I am trying down on the stenographer’s pocket book, which is – image me as I am trying away from her. And with out a phrase of preamble, she begins telling me about Alice Glass and the way necessary her affect was in Lyndon’s life. She talks about how stunning and stylish she was. She says one thing like, it is – quote’s within the e book. I bear in mind her in a succession of pretty clothes and me in much less pretty. She says, you recognize, every thing Alice informed him – she meets him when he is a brand new congressman, and his arms are very lengthy and ungainly. She says, make a bonus of that by carrying all these French cuffs with stunning cufflinks. And he did that for the remainder of his life. There are occasions in his life the place she saved his political profession, one specifically.

DAVIES: Alice Marsh did.

CARO: Alice Marsh did. However she’s speaking about this, Girl Hen, and through the entire time she’s speaking to me, I am unable to bear to lookup at her. I simply sit there writing notes.

DAVIES: So she speaks admiringly of this…

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: …Lady who most likely had an affair together with her husband. You already know, and it is fascinating since you spent a lot time speaking to Lyndon Johnson’s little brother, Sam Houston Johnson, and desirous to get the true story from him. Had been you ready to only go away it there with Girl Hen – I imply, not ask concerning the ache it might need precipitated?

CARO: As an instance I did not ask any questions of that interview. It is the one interview that I can bear in mind the place I did not ask any questions. And actually, I could not bear to lookup on the individual I used to be interviewing.

DAVIES: And so that you did not really feel like that was one thing you simply wanted to resolve?

CARO: Effectively, from my standpoint, I had gotten to the underside of it as a result of I had seen – I may doc quite a lot of occasions during which he saved his political profession. You already know, he relied on her. Throughout the struggle, he is in Australia. It is 1942. One of many Texas senators has died. He has to determine whether or not to run for one more time period within the Home of Representatives or to run for the Senate.

He is allowed one phone name. He would not name the White Home. Franklin Roosevelt has informed him, you may at all times name me. He calls. I did not know this. I got here throughout this telegram within the information the place – it is signed Alice. I had no thought who Alice was. The telegram says Lyndon. Everybody else – which implies the White Home, I came upon. Everybody else thinks it is best to run for the Senate. I feel it is best to run for the Home once more. He runs for the Home once more. At quite a lot of factors, turning factors in his profession, it is her recommendation that he depends on. I did not actually wish to go into what you requested me about. I wasn’t going to ask Girl Hen concerning the ache it precipitated.

DAVIES: Did she recognize the biographies that you just wrote in the long run? Or…

CARO: I perceive she hated them. However I additionally – I am unsure her eyesight was too good. Perhaps – I am unsure. From varied issues she stated, I used to be by no means fairly certain that she truly wasn’t counting on what workers individuals informed her about them.

DAVIES: You are engaged on the final piece of the Lyndon Johnson collection. It is concerning the Vietnam Battle years.

CARO: Sure.

DAVIES: I will not ask you the way far into it you might be. It may take so long as it’ll take. You are 83. I do know you get requested this quite a bit. Are you anxious about ending it?

CARO: Effectively, I do not take into consideration not ending. You may hear the clock ticking, however you possibly can’t let that rush. I am attempting to not rush this e book. I am attempting to do it the identical approach I did the opposite books as a result of what can be the purpose if I did it a unique approach?

DAVIES: Robert Caro, it has been enjoyable. Thanks a lot. Good luck. We’ll sit up for the final quantity.

CARO: Thanks for an amazing interview, nice questions. Thanks.

DAVIES: Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer Robert Caro, recorded in 2019, speaking about his e book, “Working: Researching, Interviewing, Writing.” Caro is at the moment engaged on the fifth and ultimate quantity of his biography of Lyndon Johnson concerning the Vietnam Battle.

On tomorrow’s present, tales of life, loss of life, therapeutic and frustration in hospital emergency rooms. Dr. Farzon Nahvi describes being on the entrance strains within the pandemic and improvising therapy and safety protocols and, in pre-COVID occasions, attempting to assist sufferers in a well being care system that too usually lets them down. His new e book is “Code Grey.” I hope you possibly can be a part of us. For Terry Gross, I am Dave Davies.

(SOUNDBITE OF CHRIS THILE AND BRAD MEHLDAU’S “TALLAHASSEE JUNCTION”)

Copyright © 2023 NPR. All rights reserved. Go to our web site phrases of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for additional data.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This textual content will not be in its ultimate type and could also be up to date or revised sooner or later. Accuracy and availability might differ. The authoritative file of NPR’s programming is the audio file.