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For 20 years, he's played 'Saw's' boogeyman. He doesn't see it as a trap

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For 20 years, he's played 'Saw's' boogeyman. He doesn't see it as a trap

I’m sitting across the table from veteran actor Tobin Bell, whose gaze I try to hold. Between us lies a hefty metal briefcase containing nine composition books. One for each “Saw” film he’s appeared in. Two decades of rigorous preparation to play a horror mastermind.

The first page of handwritten notes for 2004’s “Saw” includes a drawn spiral interrogating the likes, dislikes and motivations of John “Jigsaw” Kramer, the methodical, hyper-intelligent, deadly-contraption designer who some call a righteous vigilante and others a ruthless killer.

“Each film is a different story and John’s in a different place,” Bell tells me, wearing a dark red-carpet-ready suit. “Same guy but different circumstances.” When speaking about his morally questionable character’s philosophy, Bell occasionally quotes Kramer’s phrases verbatim, with the same muted ferocity and growly voice as I’ve heard him do on screen.

“Live or die, make your choice,” he adds, sending chills down my spine on what would otherwise be an unremarkable sunny afternoon at the Lionsgate offices in Santa Monica.

Bell and Shawnee Smith in 2006’s “Saw III.”

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(Lionsgate)

As part of this year’s Beyond Fest, Bell will attend a 20th anniversary screening of the first “Saw” in its unrated version on Friday at the Egyptian Theatre. (Later in the month, the chapter that kicked off the gruesome franchise will return to theaters for a limited time.)

Bell, 82, an acting savant who broke into cinema’s foreground in his sixties, explains that the pages are occupied by a series of questions about the character. They start with the most basic details — “Where am I?” for example — and evolve into increasingly specific queries until they form an inverse triangle brimming with insight he’s deciphered on his own.

He learned this method from Oscar-winning actor Ellen Burstyn at the Actors Studio in New York City back in the ’70s and has applied it to every role he’s landed since.

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“By the time I get to actually rolling the camera I’m up to 128 answers,” Bell says. “You never know everything, but hopefully I know enough so I don’t go mad trying to play someone I don’t f— know at all.”

A man in a dark blazer gazes calmly.

“I wanted to just follow my instinct rather than some kind of idea of a career.” Bell says of his early days that led him to acting.

(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)

He has always pursued the kind of lived-in performances of actors such as Montgomery Cliff, Gary Cooper or Spencer Tracy, whose movies Bell says he watched in the theater as a child in his hometown of Weymouth, Mass. every Saturday. “They became their characters,” he says of those screen legends. “You didn’t feel like they were indicating.”

Before stepping into the still-expanding “Saw” saga, Bell had been a working actor for almost three decades, amassing a varied collection of screen credits. Among them were memorable supporting parts in the racially charged crime thriller “Mississippi Burning” and Sydney Pollack’s “The Firm” (two of the four times he’s acted opposite Gene Hackman).

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He watched Sidney Lumet direct Paul Newman in “The Verdict” while sitting in the courtroom next to Bruce Willis, another unknown at the time. And he’d experienced the heartbreak of being left on the cutting room floor after working with Martin Scorsese for “Goodfellas.”

“I had a scene with [Robert] De Niro that got cut,” he says. “You’ve got to be prepared for that s— too. I’m now in it only for a handshake and I say, ‘Come into my office.’ ”

Although Bell worked in summer-stock theater as a young man, he attended Boston University to study journalism, with specific aims to work in broadcast television. (In an alternate universe, Jigsaw would have become Walter Cronkite.) It was there that the 1963 assassination of John F. Kennedy would reset the course of his future.

Soon after the tragedy, Bell snuck into a drama-department-only session to hear Hume Cronyn and Jessica Tandy speak about acting as an honorable profession. That day, he concluded the world didn’t need one more talking head and decided to become an artist.

“Kennedy says in a speech to the poet Robert Frost that the artist is the last great defense of freedom, and that the artist has a love-hate relationship with society and keeps us on our toes,” Bell recalls. “I felt I no longer had any responsibility to anything. I wanted to just follow my instinct rather than some kind of idea of a career.”

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A man sits in an empty auditorium.

“I always thought I was going to be a romantic leading man,” Bell says. “But an agent also once told me, ‘If you want to work, Tobin, they’ve got to see you as something.’ ”

(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)

With a mattress tied to the top of his car, a resolute Bell moved to New York City in 1964 after being accepted at the Neighborhood Playhouse School of the Theatre. Little did he know that in order to chase his acting goals, he would be laying on his back painting the underside of stairwells in a 17-story apartment building to make a living.

“I worked at 53 part-time jobs to keep myself going for more than 20 years in New York,” he says. “I loaded trucks, parked cars at the Hilton garage, bussed tables, waited tables, tended bar. I worked as background and a stand-in in 35 films before I ever spoke.”

His entry into an artistic life was far from linear, however. At one point during his time in New York, Bell married and had a child. In need of steady income, he took a master’s degree in environmental science and for the next six years created educational experiences for school children on the Hudson River, catching, observing and releasing fish.

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Throughout it all, Bell held onto a strong conviction. “As much stage work and television as I did in New York, I believed I would become a film actor,” he says. Being part of the Actor Studio, a membership-only organization for professionals, help him keep that dream alive.

“I had a place to belong,” Bell says. “If they took you into the Actors Studio, it made one say to oneself, ‘Maybe I have something. Maybe I’m good enough.’ ”

But the years piled on and one day, a scene moderator at the famed acting workshop suggested that in order to advance his career, Bell should go to Hollywood and play “bad guys.”

“I always thought I was going to be a romantic leading man,” Bell says, remembering the frustration. “But an agent also once told me, ‘If you want to work, Tobin, they’ve got to see you as something.’ ”

A serious man stares into the lens.

Bell in 2023’s “Saw X,” which earned some of the franchise’s best reviews. “It’s all in the writing,” Bell says.

(Lionsgate)

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Then came Alan Parker’s 1988 “Mississippi Burning,” in which Bell played an FBI agent. Bell remembers the late British director asking him, “You know why I had you come in, Tobin?” Parker then pointed at the headshot that Bell was using and said, “Because there’s power in that headshot.” A year later, on the recommendation of his “Mississippi Burning” co-star Kevin Dunn, Bell moved to Los Angeles.

He wasn’t here two weeks before he was cast as a criminal in the pilot episode of the 1990 television series “Broken Badges” that would shoot in Vancouver, Canada. From there, one job after another followed and for the first time he was able to make a living solely working as an actor. The quality of the projects ranged from compelling to forgettable. You may have seen him in one episode of “The Sopranos” as the head of a military academy, or on “Seinfeld” as a no-nonsense record store owner.

“I’ve learned more doing crap than I’ve learned doing good stuff,” he says. “Because you have to try to make it better, more interesting.”

“Saw” would eventually come his way in a fortuitous manner, like most breaks. He’d played Patrick Dempsey’s father on the TV show “Once and Again,” and while his character was a shadowy figure, Bell’s potent, piercing voice cut through. That series and “Saw” shared the same casting director, Amy Lippens, so when the debuting Australian director James Wan needed a voice for Jigsaw’s tapes in “Saw,” she suggested Bell.

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It wasn’t until the first sequel, “Saw II” that Bell felt more substantial ownership of the character of John Kramer, whom he describes as a “King Lear-size guy,” making suggestions for the screenplay, including dialogue, which he has continued to do for each new film. And though Bell doesn’t condone Kramer’s actions, he understands his disdain for those he traps.

“John feels that the world has been taken over by mediocre people,” Bell says. “He believes we all have to deal with the consequences of what we create. And that these people are not appreciative of what they have.”

A man sits in an auditorium.

“When I was a kid I didn’t like going to horror films,” Bell says. “As soon as the scary part of a film would come up, I’d be down behind the seat.”

(Jason Armond / Los Angeles Times)

Admittedly, Bell has never been a fan of horror (though he was impressed by the Australian slasher “Wolf Creek”). He prefers historical films and period dramas. But through conventions and casual meetings with horror fans, he’s gained an appreciation for their devotion to the genre and the thoughtfulness of their questions about Kramer’s worldview. He also has his own theory about why people like being scared.

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“It’s a visceral experience that you can’t control,” Bell says. “You’re not just sitting, passively watching. All of a sudden you [jumps up from his chair, startled]. Some people like that. Not my cup of tea, necessarily. When I was a kid I didn’t like going to horror films. As soon as the scary part of a film would come up, I’d be down behind the seat.”

When I ask if he’s ever felt pigeonholed in the billion-dollar-grossing phenomenon of “Saw,” Bell suggests that every actor gets pigeonholed, whether as “an ingenue, the girl next door,” or in his case, a “bad guy.”

“If within being pigeonholed I can create a rich acting experience — which is why I became an actor — pigeonhole me, go ahead,” Bell says. “It’s every artist’s responsibility to create within whatever is given to him and it’s my job to change your perception of me. If you want to perceive me in a certain way, maybe you’ll see me differently when you see the next film.”

About the upcoming “Saw XI” slated for release during the fall of 2025, Bell confirmed he’s a main part of it. The hope, he says, after the reinvigorated critical and audience reception to last year’s Mexico-set “Saw X,” is to continue elevating the quality of the series.

“It’s all in the writing,” he adds. Bell believes horror films can be as layered as those of any other genre. “It’s not all one guy outside the screen door with sidelight on him.” And the fans, he says, always want to talk to him about the big moral questions of “Saw,” not the gory particulars.

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“I’m really excited about continuing to develop him,” he says. “John Kramer is not done. There’s more to learn.”

Even after 50 years devoted to acting, there’s just as much left to be seen from Bell, who is also writing a memoir and his own screenplays — he’s putting on one of the pieces he’s penned at the Actors Studio soon. As he starts a new composition book for another Jigsaw tale, his own storied life keeps adding pages.

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Movie Reviews

Without Gore or Violence, This Serial-Killer Thriller Creeps Into Your Soul

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Without Gore or Violence, This Serial-Killer Thriller Creeps Into Your Soul

Laurie Babin and Juliette Gariépy in Red Rooms.
Photo: Nemesis Films

There are no real red rooms in Canadian director Pascal Plante’s unnerving thriller Red Rooms. Mostly a lot of white, gray, blank ones — from the bare and futuristically antiseptic courtroom where a grisly trial is taking place, to the minimalist high-rise Montreal apartment where the film’s protagonist lives, to the squash courts where she takes out her anger. The title refers to the horrific, blood-soaked dungeons where, it is alleged, the serial killer on trial — Ludovic Chevalier, also known as “the Demon of Rosemont” and played wordlessly by Maxwell McCabe-Lokos with saucer-eyed, predatory calm — mutilated his teenage victims while livestreaming the slaughter for money. We do witness distant flashes of such a room at one point, but the idea mostly looms over the film like an unseen dimension, a psychotic alternate reality beneath and beyond the eerie, empty drabness of modern life.

Plante’s interest lies not so much in the criminal or his victims but on the people obsessed with him. The film (which is now available on demand and playing in select theaters) follows Kelly-Anne (Juliette Gariépy), a statuesque and mostly expressionless professional model who gets in line early every night to get into the small courtroom in the morning. Deep into the world of the dark web, Kelly-Anne spends much of her time playing online poker with Bitcoin and hacking into other people’s private lives — even accessing the email accounts and security codes for the grieving parents of the Demon’s victims. Kelly-Anne doesn’t show much emotion, but Plante often accompanies her scenes with wailing, operatic music that is as expressive as she is not. She also meets another serial killer groupie who could be her polar opposite in personality, Clémentine (Laurie Babin), a manic chatterbox who genuinely believes Chevalier must be innocent because his big eyes are too kind. (His eyes, by the way, are not kind — and Plante makes fine use of them in one of the film’s more striking scenes.)

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There is no real bloodshed in Red Rooms, but there is a kind of spiritual savagery. Plante achieves this partly through subtraction: Confronted with a verbal accounting of the Demon’s unspeakable crimes, Kelly-Anne’s poker-faced fascination with the trial is increasingly hard to read. Is she drawn to Chevalier and his alleged acts, or repulsed by them? This is among the many questions that hang in the air for most of Red Rooms’ running time, and the unnerving mystery of Kelly-Anne’s psyche, combined with the ease with which she moves through the shady corners of the internet, present a portrait of a very modern soul — unreadable, unstable, and unsettling.

At the same time, the initially controlled direction of the film — with its long, deliberate tracking shots, and orderly spaces — suggests a character who is herself fully in control of herself and her surroundings. Kelly-Anne might be unwell, but she’s also quite cool. This contrasts sharply with the messy behavior of Clémentine, who during one of the movie’s more bravura sequences calls into a late-night talk show to try and defend Chevalier, only to reveal how unhinged she really sounds. But as Red Rooms proceeds, Kelly-Anne’s reality also begins to slip, and the film’s style becomes looser, more frantic and fragmented. So much so that we might even start to question the veracity of what we’re seeing.

Despite the (thankful) lack of gore and violence, Red Rooms feels curiously giallo-adjacent at times. The bursts of formalism, the melodramatic score, the ways in which the model-protagonist’s own profession becomes a stylistic barometer for her mental state — these are all evocative of that classic, colorful subgenre of horror. What’s missing is the tongue-in-cheek exploitative quality of giallo. Or is it? By denying us cheap thrills, and by pointedly going in the other direction, Red Rooms highlights their absence. This picture about people obsessed with criminals and their grisly crimes confronts us with the mystery of who the obsessives truly are; the questions we ask of Kelly-Anne could also be asked of all us genre fiends. The expressionless, fascinated gaze at the heart of this film is ultimately not the protagonist’s, but our own.

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'Being true to our inner nerd': The eye-catching lineup at L.A. Comic Con is proof of the event's growth

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'Being true to our inner nerd': The eye-catching lineup at L.A. Comic Con is proof of the event's growth

Giancarlo Esposito is no stranger to the fandom convention circuit. His role in “Breaking Bad” brought a certain type of fan. His roles in “Abigail” and “The Mandolorian” bring another type. And his upcoming role in “Captain America: Brave New World” will thrust him into a Marvel fan space he has yet to experience.

He acknowledges that it’s all because of fans.

“They are responsible for me being in ‘Captain America,’ because although I liked the idea of X-Men and many other comic book characters, it was that particular fandom blowout that allowed me to walk up to [Marvel executive] Nate Moore at an Emmy Awards and say, ‘Hey, it would be great to do something with you,’” said Esposito.

“The world has changed in film and television, and I think people are listening to the fans. Fans are loyal. If fans love what you do, they can create a space for you to do more of what you do and to do what you don’t do.”

The award-winning actor is one of the standout participants at this year’s Los Angeles Comic Con. The con takes place this Friday through Sunday, and has been around in different forms since 2011. Founded by producer Regina Carpinelli and her brothers as Comikaze Expo, the show gained support from industry stars like Elvira, Todd McFarlane, and Stan Lee. It has gone through enough iterations and name changes and now draws about 125,000 people to downtown L.A.’s convention center. Not exactly low-key, but when mentioned alongside other national fandom events, it may not seem to have the same Hollywood cache.

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There’s little reason for that logic, and this year could help prove it.

Chris DeMoulin, CEO and GM of Los Angeles Comic Con parent company CEI, wants to create a home for Angeleno nerds.

(Courtesy of Los Angeles Comic Con)

Chris DeMoulin, CEO and GM of Los Angeles Comic Con parent company CEI, wants L.A. Comic Con to be a home for Angeleno nerds. It’s different than its two closest comparisons (not competitors): Anime Expo, which features Japanese anime, manga and cosplay, and San Diego’s Comic-Con International, which, though fan-centric, has become a calling card for Hollywood studios.

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But how is it different?

“Our mantra from day one has always been that we’re a convention that’s for the fans by fans. … In the early going, as a little show, the studios weren’t going to sit down with us and think about doing big publicity things with us. So we just asked the fans, ‘Who do you want to see?’ ,” says DeMoulin. “So we don’t do it just for the sake of doing it. We really do it because somebody like Hayden Christensen has been in the top five recommended guests in the post-show surveys we’ve done for the last five years.”

Besides Esposito and Christensen , additional fan-favorite guests this year include Ewan McGregor, Tara Strong, Hayden Panettiere and Gordon Cormier. Reunion casts of “Back to the Future” and “The Addams Family” will also make appearances on panels and at autograph booths.

DeMoulin was excited over last year’s appearance of the four hobbits from the “Lord of the Rings” franchise (Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan), and this year’s crop is just as exciting. Many of the names, like Rosario Dawson and Ming-Na Wen, are familiar on the convention circuit. But there are others, like Michael J. Fox and Anjelica Huston, who represent a little of what’s different about L.A.’s Comic Con.

“I mean, Anjelica Houston. Amazing actor. Doesn’t normally do cons — but when we had Christopher Lloyd and we were talking to Christina Ricci, we thought, ‘Hey, “Addams Family” reunion!’ We reached out to her agent and she was like, ‘Yeah, I normally don’t do this stuff, but I live here, so why not?’”

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It’s that proximity to stars — not just where they work in Hollywood, but also where they live — that is also a unique component of the growing convention. Though he’s an avowed New Yorker, Esposito sees something special about the L.A.-ness of the event. He has been to the con twice before, and will be there again this year greeting fans who may only know him as Moff Gideon, his “Mandolorian” bad guy, but most likely are more savvy about his career.

“I think the L.A. Comic Con is an example of people who are also in film. And I think that gives it a bit of an edge,” says Esposito. “The connective tissue between Los Angelinos and Hollywood and film and geek actors and geek technicians is huge. I always look forward to doing L.A. Comic Con because part of the reason I go to Comic Cons is to be in wonder, enchantment and joy.”

A shot of the Artist Alley at last year's Los Angeles Comic Con in the L.A. Convention Center.

A shot of the Artist Alley at last year’s Los Angeles Comic Con in the L.A. Convention Center.

(Courtesy of Los Angeles Comic Con)

Like other fandom gatherings, L.A. Comic Con also endeavors to keep fans front-and-center with the vendors. The main stage is actually in the middle of a showroom floor, which will be host to almost 900 exhibitors and artists. The Artists’ Alley section also highlights what DeMoulin sees as one of the main purposes of the convention.

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“Ultimately, we want this to be a place where creators want to come and debut new stuff and just interact with fans. We’ve got really knowledgeable, interesting fans in this town, and they love to come out and meet the creators that are associated with the stuff that they love,” says DeMoulin.

The convention is evolving, this year inserting video game creators and lots of anime- and manga-centered entertainment in their own spaces. The new additions are a side effect of growth, and there’s more coming.

“I think you’ll see us continue to add concentric circles of adjacent entertainment spaces as we grow, but always being true to our inner nerd, which is we’re never going to walk away from the key franchises,” DeMoulin continues. “The Marvels and the ‘Star Wars’ and the ‘Star Treks’ and the whole comic universe. That’s always going to be the core of what we do. But I think we have the opportunity to do more because we’re L.A.”

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A movie review (of sorts): ‘Don’t Turn Your Back on Saturday Night' – Manchester Ink Link

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A movie review (of sorts): ‘Don’t Turn Your Back on Saturday Night' – Manchester Ink Link

The literary world missed the memo: I’m supposed to be famous by now. 

But aren’t we all? 

The first ingredient for seeking fame while pursuing a fine art is a healthy ego. It is only after an artist becomes famous and successful that they can fake humility. Until then, we’re all scratching and clawing at the walls, trying to be noticed.

And stupendous talent isn’t always a prerequisite for success in the arts. Sure, there needs to be a basic awareness of craft, as well as some innate ability, but the most talented artists aren’t always the most successful or famous. 

I’m not talking about myself, of course. 

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With age comes the recognition of our limitations, and there is a reason that I’m hacking out columns while drinking a beer in my basement and not working on my next novel while sipping a fine chardonnay in my chalet.

Instead, I’m talking about the musician Ike Reilly, who fronts a band called The Ike Reilly Assassination. 

In August, directors Michael O’Brien and Mike Schmeideler released a documentary film on Reilly titled “Don’t Turn Your Back on Friday Night.” The film is a refreshing reminder that not all prodigiously talented artists attain worldwide fame. 

A movie review (of sorts): ‘Don’t Turn Your Back on Saturday Night' – Manchester Ink Link

I was first introduced to Ike Reilly in Steve Almond’s 2010 book “Rock and Roll Will Save Life.” As a fan of Reilly’s music, I had arrived late to the game. By 2010, Reilly had already released more than a half dozen albums, all except one record released on an independent label called Rock Ridge Music. 

A former gravedigger and hotel doorman, Reilly has lived his entire life in the same town north of Chicago named Libertyville, Ill.—which also happens to be Marlon Brando’s hometown. The documentary captures a lot of Reilly’s backstory, from marrying his high school sweetheart and raising a family, to his decision to give the rock n’ roll life a twirl in his 30s.

Reilly’s first album “Salesman and Racists” was supposed to set the music industry ablaze in 2001, and Universal Records offered Riley a large advance. The album was critically-acclaimed, and to this day, “Salesman and Racists” remains one of those rare albums where I won’t skip a track.

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But for some reason—there is a lot of conjecture in the film, including the inability to neatly package Reilly’s music for a specific demographic—it never happened.

The documentary, however, is about far more than a promising rock star who never lived up to the hype and expectations set by the music industry. It’s about how Reilly refused to sell out and continues to create great music on his own terms, in spite of everything. It’s about how Reilly reconciled with his own demons and double-downed on his family. 

Aside from being a compelling story, “Don’t Turn Your Back on Saturday Night” also contains some dynamite tunes. If you’re not familiar with Ike Reilly’s work, this is a good place to start. Many of his relative hits (or my favorite songs)are featured in the film, including the title song, “Commie Drives a Nova,” “I Will Let You Down,” “Garbage Day” and “Born on Fire.”

Steve Almond poignantly describes Reilly’s music in his book: “[Ike Reilly] sounded like Dylan, if Dylan had been Irish instead of Jewish and never left the Midwest and had grown up listening to the Clash rather than Woody Guthrie.”  

Most of all, Ike Reilly is a storyteller and a poet, and any time you find a storyteller and a poet who also makes beautiful music, it is a gift indeed. 

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So who cares if they never get really famous? To use a platitude, it is all about the art. 


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