Now we know the real story behind the Ohio Lottery director’s abrupt exit: Today in Ohio

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Pat McDonald resigned last month as director of the Ohio Lottery Commission. Now we know the move came after being confronted by DeWine administration officials about allegations of unwanted touching and suggestive text messages sent to employees.

We’re talking about the investigation on Today in Ohio.

Listen online here.

Editor Chris Quinn hosts our daily half-hour news podcast, with impact editor Leila Atassi, editorial board member Lisa Garvin and content director Laura Johnston.

You’ve been sending Chris lots of thoughts and suggestions on our from-the-newsroom text account, in which he shares what we’re thinking about at cleveland.com. You can sign up here: https://joinsubtext.com/chrisquinn.

Here’s what we’re asking about today:

How are Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine, Senate President Matt Huffman and House Speaker Jason Stevens clashing over the idea of helping out people with affordable housing?

We highly suspected there was a real story behind the abrupt exit of Ohio’s Lottery director, even though the governor’s office originally told us there was no there there. What are the details?

How does Canada handle childcare in a way that should make American parents extremely envious?

Does Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibb’s plan to speed up lakefront development have some traction now?

Spreading affordable broadband access throughout Cleveland was one of the very first purposes mentioned in 2021 for the hundreds of millions of federal pandemic stimulus dollars sent to the city. On Friday, finally, came news of actual broadband projects. What are they?

What do we know about the former Marine from Cleveland Heights who was killed in the war in Ukraine?

We talked last week about the giant number of dollars needed by the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority to get its rail lines into decent shape. They got good news about a piece of the number Friday. What was it?

Reporter John Tucker wrote an illuminating story about how illegal drugs have been getting into the Cuyahoga County jail. Who’s bringing it in?

Turbotax is a program people use to pay their taxes or, more important get refunds paid back to them. But now Turbotax itself is going to be paying money to a whole lot of Ohioans. Why?

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Read the automated transcript below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it contains many errors and misspellings.

[00:00:00] Chris: And we’re back. It’s today in Ohio, the news podcast discussion from cleveland.com and the plane dealer for a Monday. I’m Chris Quinn. I’m here with Elisa Garvin, Layla Tassi, and Laura Johnston. After a beautiful weekend in May, following a week of cold rain, it’s nice to finally see spring. How are Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, Senate President Matt Huffman and House Speaker Jason Stevens clashing over the idea of helping out people with affordable housing.

Lisa, we thought affordable housing was going to be part of the budget, but Darth Vader has reared his head.

[00:00:39] Lisa: Yeah, governor Mike DeWine has proposed a a couple of different, you know, things, tax credits for developers who would build new homes for low income renters and owners, and that would be a 10 year tax credit.

And these would also be coupled with federal low income housing tax credits. So, you know, it sounds like a win-win. And so a [00:01:00] hundred million. Of what DeWine is proposing would be those credits over 10 years in addition to the federal money, and then 50 million specifically for affordable single family housing.

Now, the house turned down that 50 million piece, but they increased the overall investment to 500 million. The Senate has no proposal yet. They say Senate President Matt Huffman says they’re really more focused on keeping people in their own homes. He said it would be less expensive for taxpayers and better for the person, but they haven’t offered any cost estimates for that at

[00:01:35] Chris: all.

Yeah, I, I’m, I’m not surprised that Matt Huffman would not like this idea. He really isn’t much about helping people in need. Uh, the, the, what he’s trying to provide would be much more middle class Dew Wine seems like he’s trying to make sure people have shelters. So I don’t, I guess it’s not a surprise that Matt Huff.

Then would try and stop this. I wonder [00:02:00] what happens in the negotiations as they get to the final budget though.

[00:02:04] Lisa: Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see because DeWine seems fairly committed to affordable housing, uh, the o Ohio for Enterprise Community Partners, which builds affordable units. The director, Hazel Reish says, yeah, keeping people in their homes is important, but you, it’s not gonna solve the affordable housing crisis by itself.

She said, you need policies to build new and preserve old at the same time. Yeah.

[00:02:27] Chris: I remember how overjoyed those housing advocates were when Dew Wine’s budget came out. And they thought, wow, for once they’re going to try to do something. We’ve talked about this need for a long time, and right now it is very much in danger.

Shows that the Republican leaders, even though they own the State House, don’t always agree on everything. You’re listening to today in Ohio, we highly suspected there was a real story behind the abrupt exit of Ohio’s lottery director, even though the governor’s office originally told us there was no there there, [00:03:00] Layla.

It was either the guy did something bad or it was a political move. It sounds like it’s the former. What are the details? Yeah.

[00:03:07] Leila: Pat McDonald resigned April 12th, and he cited some unspecified medical reasons, but now we know that he was actually under investigation for accusations that he would frequently send suggestive text messages or touch people inappropriately or express inappropriate fondness in the workplace, especially toward two employees.

He also. Offered these employees flexibility with their work hours that others did not have. Although it doesn’t seem that the employees in question took advantage of that. The record suggests that they work the required number of hours when when McDonald was confronted. He denied these accusations but then said, He had been thinking of resigning anyway for health reasons.

So he did that the following day and they dropped the investigation against him. But in text messages, the [00:04:00] text messages are very damning. The Ohio Lottery Commission provided these in response to a public record records request. He, he, he sent numerous late night text messages to one particular employee and in them, he repeatedly told this employee, I love you, and said that he wishes the employee were his son.

In one. He said, I, I drive you crazy, but you will never have a boss nor dude that cares and loves you so much. And in another one he wrote, you are the most amazing and fun, intellectual and hot dude I ever met. Uh, so yeah, that’s, uh, pretty, pretty bad. Yeah.

[00:04:38] Chris: Yeah. You know what the, the troubling thing about this is when he resigned, we immediately had tips that he was walked out of the building.

That, that this was not a, a friendly retirement. It was very abrupt. And, and when we called the governor’s office, I said, yeah, we’re hearing the same thing, but the there’s nothing to that. There’s nothing to that. Instead of just saying, Hey, look, there’s an [00:05:00] investigation behind this. It’s, it’s still in the investigation stage.

We’re not ready to release it yet. When we, when we are, we will. So it’s disappointing that they were misleading and nobody believed him Anyway, what the other troubling thing is, it says that because he resigned or retired or whatever, that they stopped their investigation. Now I would say that’s right, that given that this sounds like a very hostile workplace for these folks, you’d wanna complete that investigation to make sure you have the.

Proper policies in place so that it doesn’t happen again. Or if it happens again, it’s more easily reported, what, what’s to say that the next director won’t do the same thing?

[00:05:40] Leila: Yep. Yeah, that’s, those are excellent points. Um, and, and, and also to, I guess, make sure that no laws were broken here, that there’s no criminal liability and, um, And, and you know, who knows if this, if this particular employee could choose to bring a lawsuit, they, they don’t wanna, they, they shouldn’t just wash their hands of this so quickly, sweep it under the rug.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Chris: And this is one of those cases too, where you’re playing with people’s livelihoods. So th these workers get, you know, this guy gets these messages from his boss and uncomfortable, but if you push back too hard, do you lose your job? Do you lose whatever makes it work? And so they’re trying to navigate this to try and, and get through it.

And eventually, uh, it gets. It’s so overwhelming that it gets reported, but it, it’s a horrible situation and they should really look into what’s going on in the lottery commission mm-hmm. Offices to make sure this kind of thing isn’t happening regularly. I mean, it just, the, the text messages are over the top, but you just read.

Can you imagine getting those from your boss? Can you imagine me sending messages like that? I hope the answer’s no. Good Lord, I really hope the answer’s no. Okay. It’s just not appropriate. You can’t do that, right? You’re putting people into a very difficult situation and it, it’s out of control. They, they should complete this investigation and come out with whatever policy changes they [00:07:00] need.

You’re listening to today in Ohio, how does Canada handle childcare in a way that should make American parents extremely envious? Laura?

[00:07:11] Laura: There is a Canadian plan to provide public childcare for $10 Canadian a day that’s in the works, and this is coming from Quebec actually, until very recently, until the pandemic childcare, at least in Ontario, where my cousins lived, didn’t seem very different than here.

It was hard to get into. It was expensive. But during the pandemic, they took this opportunity to switch to a model that Quebec has used successfully for 25 years. I really had no idea till Gretchen Kuda Kron started doing the research. It seems brilliant. There’s this public system of childcare that basically pays for itself, and it’s based on the increase of women in the workforce earning money and paying income taxes that pays for this childcare that cost the families about.

$8 Canadian a day, which is about $6. Us the finance minister who of course is a [00:08:00] woman, pushed this through, uh, when everybody during the pandemic just realized how important childcare is, so they divvied up about $30 billion. Canadian in initial funding amongst the provinces. No province said, Hey, no, we don’t want.

This and their goal is to create 250,000 childcare spaces by March of 2026. Right now they’re in a transition, so they’re doing rebates up to 50%, uh, this year, paying the parents back. So about $7 American is what it’s gonna cost to take your, your kid to childcare all day In Canada, starting in a couple of

[00:08:34] Chris: years, I did get some emails from.

Some people who lean to the right, I guess I should describe them, who thought this was more socialism than smart policy That, that they just don’t agree that the taxpayers should have to foot that bill. I mean, at one point in the story it said that this would cost nothing but it, it will cost a lot of tax dollars.

[00:08:56] Laura: Well, but the, their point is that yes, it’s publicly [00:09:00] funded, but the public. Like revenue coming from it is greater because of it that they increased their women working, um, from the 60 something percent to 80 something. So they have one of the highest women work rates in the world, I believe, for paid income, and that is paying for the system.

So, yeah. Obviously you’re paying something, but it’s being, those coffers are being continually replenished by what it’s achieved. And I mean, yes, Canada is way more socialistic than the United States. They have universal healthcare, but we do have programs in this country that you could be describing as socialism.

I mean, it’s not like we are a hundred percent capitalism, and if you can’t make a dollar, then we’re gonna fall off the edge

[00:09:44] Chris: of the earth. No, I, and look, I don’t, none. Saying I agree that this is socialism. It’s actually seems like a smart policy to help parents raise the the children in the ever increasing costs, as you well know.

It’s fascinating. This is happening just to the north of [00:10:00] us and we have nothing really similar to it here. Imagine if your childcare had that kind of price tag.

[00:10:07] Laura: I, I think people would have more kids. Really? I do. Cuz I, it would, and you’re publicly available, so you know you’re gonna have a slot. You’re not competing for that.

And the thing is, Quebec actually had a private childcare system as well, and that’s kind of gone out of business because the public system worked so well. And Gretchen did a whole lot of research for this story. I was, I was floored reading it honestly. The A 2020 study by the Economic Policy Institute found that the US spends.

0.2% of its G D P on kids before they reach kindergarten. That’s less than one third of the world average. And so we talk in can or, or we talk in the United States about how much we value family and how much we value children, but we are not putting our money where our mouth is. And she gets into the politics.

She wants to delve into this a little bit more. But you know, when you try to give. Even federal money to states to say you can expand childcare. I mean, places [00:11:00] like Idaho send it back and they say, we don’t want this here, we don’t want women working. And you know, um, Ohio Senator JD Vance tweeted that Universal daycare is class war against normal people.

So this isn’t just, uh, like what’s best for families and what’s best for our economy. This is a very political. Ideological fight.

[00:11:18] Chris: Everything. Today is a very political yes. Ideological fight. You can’t pick an issue. Interesting stuff. You should really read the story. It’s eye-opener even for our Canadian native on this podcast.

Exactly. You’re listening to today in Ohio. Does Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibbs plan to speed up lakefront development have some traction now, Lisa, what just happened? It makes it so

[00:11:41] Lisa: on Friday, the city Planning Commission approved Bibbs plan to spend 21 million in ARPA money on establishing a waterfront activation fund.

So this would be money that would help. Expedite nine projects that are in various stages of planning and development. And this will [00:12:00] also leverage an additional 195 million from government agencies, foundations, and corporations. Um, the city’s integrated development chief, Jeff Epstein, says this is will be a Cadillac.

Catalytic thrust. He says, the money will provide tangible, early stage improvements that we can actually see happening in the next few years. So the projects that are, they’re focusing on, and the one that’s getting the most is Irish Town Bend that’s getting 5 million to stabilize that, that bend and. Put a park there.

Also, 3 million for the North Coast connector, which is now what we’re calling that bridge. That would go, you know, over to the north coast harbor. So it’s not the has plan or the ribbon plan anymore. Um, cheers. That’s where they’re going to use dredge material to build, uh, 75 acres of parkland and they’re getting 1.5 million for a.

Fishing pier, which is part of that project. The Euclid Beach Trail Connector. This is, it’s a 16 million project. Not sure how much money is going [00:13:00] towards this, but this will be a half mile lakefront trail from a Euclid Creek reservation across three different subdivisions or neighborhoods and the neighbors that the owners have agreed to.

Ha. Allow a trail easement in exchange for erosion control. So, um, yeah, and a lot, like a lot of these destination Cleveland, the lighting, we talked about that last week, the bedrock riverfront infrastructure, they want 3 million to jumpstart improvements from Tower City to collision bend. So lots of projects, and like I said, they, they have things that they can do now, things that they can plan for later, and that’s what this money will help do.

[00:13:37] Chris: There’s so much substance coming out of the city’s use of this money. It is such a stark contrast to how the county did it. These are, these are good projects and you gotta salute ‘em from moving it. Now you’re listening to today in Ohio, spreading affordable broadband access throughout Cleveland was one of the very first purposes mentioned in 2021 for the hundreds [00:14:00] of millions of federal pandemic stimulus dollars sent.

To Cleveland. Well, you’ll remember there was absolutely no plan for it because we were in AM Mayor’s race with the previous administration and the council president said, I’m gonna do it with no concrete. Finally, on Friday came some news of actual broadband projects. 18 months later, what are they?

[00:14:22] Leila: Yes, they’re finally putting this plan together to bring affordable internet to the masses in a city where 35% of of residents lack broadband service at their home.

This is gonna be introduced to city council tonight. It’s a proposal to create two citywide internet services. One option would provide an $18 a month broadband plan through local nonprofit digital. C. They use fixed wireless technology to to offer high speed connectivity. The second option would come through a proposed agreement with sci-fi networks, which would build fiber optic lines across the city, the digital [00:15:00] c.

Connectivity will happen pretty quickly within about 18 months of, of this deal’s approval. But the fiber installation is gonna take longer. It’s gonna be about two years, and then construction would take about five. But the beauty about the fiber plan is that the sci-fi network’s proposal doesn’t involve any public money.

This company already has agreements with more than 40 cities across. 11 states and they’ve agreed to privately invest more than 400 million to build out the fiber network in Cleveland and once built sci-fi would operate the lines and then sell wholesale access to those lines to internet service providers that already serve Cleveland residents.

The digital C agreement is gonna tap into that 20 million in American Rescue Plan Act Money that you were talking about, that city council. And, and Frank Jackson set aside in 2021, but they’re gonna need a lot more than that to connect the whole city. So digital C is gonna tap [00:16:00] into its own financial reserves, and then the Jack Joseph and Morton Mandel Foundation and the David and Inez Meyers Foundation are gonna match the city’s money with a 20 million investment of their own.

So a very nice collaboration of philanthropy, public money, and private investment.

[00:16:20] Chris: I don’t get what took so long though. I mean, this was put on the table in whatever it was, September of, of 21 and digital C was mentioned and the foundation was mentioned, and I, I hope it’s not a sign of how long this will take to install the delay it took to come to this agreement.

You just hope digital C does have the resources to get this done in short order, right?

[00:16:47] Leila: Yeah, I mean it. There are a lot of parts to this plan, so I can see why it probably took a while. I mean, you’ve got, you had to get sci-fi networks to pony up their own in, you know, money for [00:17:00] investment here. 20 million wasn’t enough.

I mean, so, so all this philanthropy had to come together, I think. I think obviously they were being very thoughtful in how they put this together.

[00:17:11] Chris: The, the sci-fi part of it won’t be guaranteed at a low price. The, it’s the digital c that would give people the broadband for $18 a month. Sci-fi sounds like it might be market, but right now in most of Cleveland, they do not have fiber, so they cannot get fiber speeds that people get

[00:17:27] Leila: in the suburbs.

Right, right. That’s the real difference maker here is, is that fiber connectivity throughout the city.

[00:17:34] Chris: Okay, you’re listening to today in Ohio. What do we know about the former Marine from Cleveland Heights was killed in the war in Ukraine. Laura.

[00:17:44] Laura: Well, he sounds like a wonderful person. Cooper Andrews. He was 26.

And his family, sorry. His family says his compassion for others led him to help the people of Ukraine. He was struck by a mortar outside Bach moot on what’s called the Road of Life, which is [00:18:00] an access artery in the Eastern Ukraine city, and it’s used to evacuate civilians in resupply the Ukrainian military.

He was actually supposed to return home in March. He decided to stay in Ukraine and continue to help, and then his family members say it’s actually his unit was told to retreat, but he and others. Stayed behind and wanted to evacuate civilians. So in every choice he has, he is, is he was selfless and, and didn’t do what could have saved him.

So he was an Eagle Scout, a volunteer firefighter. He went out and extinguished wildfires in Texas, Colorado, and Idaho. And in his spare time, which I mean it does not sound like this young man had much spare time. He helps teach self-defense classes to women fixed kitchen appliances, fed neighborhood kids, collected feminine.

Feminine hygiene products to donate to women who needed them. So just an incredible person.

[00:18:48] Chris: And when, when the war started in Ukraine, he just felt like he had a duty to go help out.

[00:18:54] Laura: Yeah. He, I don’t, sorry. I don’t think he had any kind of relationship to people who [00:19:00] lived in Ukraine. He just thought it was the right thing to do.

He’d already served in, in the Marines. He came home and this is what he wanted to do. He wanted to go help people. So, um, he cared about all sorts of, of. Organizations, mutual aid, disaster relief, rise zone, home food, not bombs. That’s what his, uh, family is actually raising money for. Through a GoFundMe in his honor.

They wanna raise money for the causes he believed in and help continue the good work that he did for so much of his short

[00:19:27] Chris: life. Okay, you’re listening to today in Ohio. We talked last week about the giant number of dollars needed by the greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority to get its rail lines into decent shape.

They got good news about a piece of the number. Friday, LA Lisa, what is it? Yeah, there

[00:19:45] Lisa: was a big announcement at RTA a’s, um, central Rail facility on Friday. Senator she Brown was there and other officials, so they were there to announce. An award of 130 million from the Biden’s [00:20:00] Infrastructure Bill Rail car replacement program.

So this will allow R T A to order its first batch of 24 cars for the heavy rail red line, which goes downtown Hopkins in Windermere. So Cleveland got the third highest grant in the nation. Uh, federal Transit Administration Director Noia Fernandez at the Friday announcement said that. This will help RTA leverage other money with, uh, local commitments to chip away at ex the extensive repair backlog.

And she, brown says Cleveland is a city on the move, so he was excited to announce it, but RTA a has 400 million in unfunded projects that includes a 30 million shortfall for the blue and green lines because they need to reconstruct those rails to fit the new cars because, Green and blue are light rail and red line is heavy rail, but they’re gonna be buying all heavy rail cars and they’re going to need a total of 50 million for rail car transformation.

[00:21:00] Overall, there’s no money coming from either the city or Cuyahoga County Mayor Justin Bib says he will lobby for the R T A needs at the highest. Levels of government and, uh, executive Chris Ronna for the county. He says he’s going to provide final mile transit solutions like bike lanes, shuttles, van pools, and walkways.

So no cash, but, but help.

[00:21:23] Chris: Yeah. They, they, they believe in it. They really do. They really do. I, I, I do think it’s marvelous that they got that chunk of money when we first started talking, it must be 10 years ago now, about this looming need to replace road cars. There was no money. They, they weren’t getting anywhere.

So yes, they have a long way to go, but to get solid, large chunks like that, I mean, the third biggest in the country, as you said, that’s a good sign. I, uh, I, I don’t know where the rest of it’ll come from. Maybe, you know, we avoid building a football stadium and they haven’t had some capital money there.

You’re listening to Today in Ohio, [00:22:00] reporter John Tucker wrote an illuminating story as John Tucker always seems to do this one about how illegal drugs have been getting into the Cuyahoga County Jail, Layla, who’s bringing them

[00:22:11] Leila: in? Oh, the story was so good and it sheds light on such a serious problem in jails across America.

In, in recent years, our jail has seen a considerable uptick in drug seizures, so John detailed the investigation of Sheriff’s Deputy Scott Vago, who got a tip from a prosecutor about drug smuggling that was happening at the facility. Organized by one inmate named Eric Ball. Vago started listening to balls, recorded jailhouse phone conversations, and reading all of his unopened mail.

And he discovered this whole drug smuggling enterprise that prosecutors say, involved a corrections officer named Lauren Ellis Nelson, who had been working there for nine months by the time they discovered what was happening. And according to the investigative report, Ellis Nelson. Had calls with 21 detainees and Vagos report says [00:23:00] that Ellis Nelson participated in 1,257 calls with nine inmates who, who had been caught with drugs.

And one of the key ways of smuggling drugs into the facility it seems is on paper. Laced with PCP or other drugs that can be chewed or dissolved on the tongue. Drugs would also get smuggled in under skin folds, like under a breast, for example, which apparently can thwart the jail’s drug screening technology that every everyone has to pass through as they enter the facility.

And especially if a person conducting the screening isn’t trained to spot those. Hidden Narcotics a. As Vago listened to these jail calls last summer, he flagged a bunch of key phrases and drug references that were really interesting. Boy, water and Tune, for example, mean heroin. P C P and drug laced paper.

So four sheets of tune could get ball a [00:24:00] thousand dollars on the jail market. And in one conversation, ball suggested that paper soaked with roach spray could get people high. His girlfriend was. The one on the outside procuring these products and funneling them to the drug mule and Lauren Ellis Nelson admitted to smuggling the drugs for three inmates when she was confronted, and she faces seven felony charges, but eventually Fargo unearth drug trafficking evidence that went beyond ball.

There were a dozen detainees and correction officers who’ve now been indicted on a bunch of crimes.

[00:24:34] Chris: I, I let, let, let’s start with the roach spray. So Paper, I, I, we haven’t had, I don’t think an overdose death on roach spray yet, but that is dangerous. I mean, if you think about that, that that’s not stuff that’s made for human consumption.

Uh, I, I don’t know what you do if you’re the jail. If this, if drugs are coming in on paper, how do you stop it? They did have a program where they’ve given the [00:25:00] inmates. iPad style tablets. And so when the mail comes in, now they’re scanning the mail and sending them the digital image, and they never get their paper mail.

But that doesn’t deal with the guards. I mean, if the guards are the ones bringing in the drugs, you know, you’re not gonna strip search guards as they come in every day. They’re going to be able to get past that. How do you deal with that?

[00:25:22] Leila: I know, I mean this, this seems like an completely unmanageable problem.

There was one source who told, uh, who told John that this is the thing that is in the back of the minds of all sheriffs across America. It’s so hard to get your arms around how do you solve this? Cuz you’re right, if it’s, if it’s the guards themselves, those are the people you’re supposed to trust to, to keep a hand on, uh, on the population, the inmate population.

And, and here they are exacerbating this problem. I mean, there’s also the question of, you know, should, should they be providing better drug treatment [00:26:00] options for, for inmates if they’re so desperate to, uh, to, to get high in jail that they’re. Sucking on paper, soaked in roach spray for heaven’s sake. Well,

[00:26:10] Chris: I, I, there’s another answer.

You know, you could change the definition of medical marijuana to include the condition of being in the jail and then turn the jails into dispensaries, and then you’d know at least they’re getting safe drugs. They’re paying for it. They’re paying top dollar for roach spray so that it wouldn’t cost the taxpayer or anything If, if you can’t stop ‘em, then maybe the thing to do is to make it safer, right?

Because we’ve had people die of drug overdoses in the jail. Not clear whether it’s based on drugs they got in the jail or before or what, but there’s. What this story said to me is resistance is futile. You’re not going to stop the drugs from coming in, so maybe you should take a different tack.

[00:26:55] Leila: Well, what is it?

I mean, the you marijuana is not the same as [00:27:00] par heroin or p ccp. Those are the drugs that these inmates are seeking here. Well, one,

[00:27:05] Chris: no, no, but the story did say that one, the, the one of the people she was dealing with, or somebody sent her a picture of a big stash of weed and said, can you get this in? And she goes, well, I’d have to strap that inside my legs.

So apparently marijuana is getting in. I don’t know, I just Oh, that’s true. You’re not, if you have guards that wanna do this, you’re not going to stop it because there’s no inspection that’s going to keep it safe. Great stuff. John Tucker is just a tremendous reporter, does a great job putting these things together.

Check out his story. It is on cleveland.com and it’s today in Ohio. Turbo Tax is a program people use to pay their taxes, or more importantly, to get refunds paid back to them. But now Turbo Tax itself is going to be paying money to a whole lot of people in Ohio. Laura, why is that?

[00:27:54] Laura: Because it tricked Americans from all 50 states into paying for its supposedly free income [00:28:00] tax filing.

So they had a free tax filing d via the i r S free file program that allows members of the military and taxpayers that earn less than $34,000 a year to file their income taxes for free with TurboTax, however, They took these very tricky steps to steer customers away, uh, from the actual free edition and then to a quote unquote free edition that has stricter eligibility requirements and led some users to pay more than $200.

So the way it did that is it blocked the free file landing page from search engine results in 2018 and never displayed or recommended that program on its products and pricing page. So people didn’t even know it existed. And I mean, it’s calling. Itself, the free edition rather than the free file. So people just thought it was, and then when you get all of the work done to file and then it tells you you owe money.

I guess people just paid because they were like, oh my gosh, I thought I understood this. I’ve done all this work. I just, [00:29:00] just gotta pay this. So Dave Yost, our attorney general from Ohio, sued

[00:29:03] Chris: the company. Is there any penalty or do they just have to pay back? The filing money because it seems like there should be a really serious punishment here.

They did bad. They knew they did bad. What is the penalty for doing bad if you just have to pay back what you sh already owed people,

[00:29:19] Laura: and it’s not even quite what you owed. The average Ohioan paid $52 to file this, and the a refund check is about $30. So I don’t know. They, they did stop participating in the free file program, so it should be very clear, like you can’t do it anymore through TurboTax, but you’re right, they, they should be publicly shamed or, you know, not allowed to do business for some amount of time because that’s really taking advantage of people.

Yeah. And in, in the, the, if you free file, you’re already. You know it’s fraud. You’re

[00:29:52] Chris: not. You committed fraud and it’s fraud. There should be trouble damages. Somebody should be looking at potential to jail time. You committed fraud on [00:30:00] untold numbers of people, and you’re getting away with it. You don’t even have to pay it all back.

It’s not a good settlement if you don’t have to pay a penalty. What’s to stop you from doing it again? Oh, if we get caught, we’ll have to pay something. Oh, well, it’s today in Ohio. That’s it for Monday. Thanks, Lisa. Thanks, Layla. Thanks Laura. Thank you for listening to this podcast. We’ll be back on Tuesday.