‘I want you to be honest. When you walk into a gym, does the thought of working out excite you? Or does it fill you with dread? Does lifting that last set give you a sense of accomplishment? Or maybe, does it make you feel like you never want to lift weights again? Now, would it make a difference if I told you that working out or just moving your body could actually make you happier? If you talk to just about any medical professional, they’re probably going to tell you that exercising or frankly, doing any physical activity on a regular basis is good for your body. It can help build strength, manage weight, reduce the risk of certain diseases – heart disease, diabetes, even cancer. But the body is not the only beneficiary. Exercise or movement is also good for your brain and your mind. And research shows that it can help people manage symptoms of depression and anxiety. There is data behind all of this. So while there is no question that exercise can make us healthier, my next guest is also going to tell you that moving your muscles can have an impact similar to taking an antidepressant. Think about that. In fact, she has spent years studying how almost any kind of movement can be a source of joy.

Ready to tap into joy. Let’s do this. Reach up with one arm and release.

‘That’s the beginning of an 8 and a half minute workout. Something designed by Kelly McGonigal. She’s a Stanford University lecturer and a health psychologist. She’s a group fitness instructor, and she’s also author of the book, The Joy of Movement: How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage. And she says that any physical activity, from swaying your hips to swimming laps, can improve your mood — and fast.

I always say that exercise is like an intravenous dose of hope. And it’s any form of movement that you’re willing to do with any part of your body that you can still move.

‘Kelly considers herself a researcher-turned-practitioner. Her Ted Talks on managing stress and harnessing willpower have tens of millions of views. And she frequently highlights the connections between movement and joy on her Instagram. Now, again, she says, any kind of movement will be good for your health and your mental well-being. But exercise – where you really do challenge your body and get your heart rate up – that, she says, can make the biggest impact. For Kelly, exercises like dance and yoga also give her an opportunity to connect with others. They’ve even helped her work through her own bouts of anxiety and depression since she was a child.

I know that getting my heart rate up actually changes my brain chemistry in a way that helps me deal with anxiety, and doing some kind of cardio workout will actually reset me so that I’m a like a braver version of myself, more enthusiastic about life.

You know, I really like that term. A braver version of herself. A braver version of yourself. That’s really powerful. My connection to exercise runs pretty deep as well. I’ve run marathons. I’ve competed in triathlons. Lately, I’ve been doing push ups and sit ups every morning. They just help me clear my head and make me feel like I’m really starting my day off, right. But there is something that I really wanted to get at with Kelly. Why do some people feel so good when they work out? While others say that exercise actually makes them feel bad? How long can that boost in happiness from exercise really last? And is it possible to derive joy from exercising? When we start to develop chronic pain in life or limited mobility? I’m Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN’s Chief Medical Correspondent. And this is Chasing Life.

‘You know, it’s interesting when you think about, movement -That’s the term we’re sort of using, I think with for this podcast with you. But what is actually happening? I mean, we know what’s happening to the body. Are you able to describe what’s happening in the brain? Why we experience happiness during an after exercise?

‘Yeah. If there’s actually a lot of different kind of brain states you could experience in movement. It’s not one thing. So maybe I can describe a couple. So, one is that classic runner’s high, which happens when you persist at a movement that’s moderately difficult. You’re getting your heart rate up for about 20 minutes or more. One of the things that that researchers think is happening in the brain is this increase in endocannabinoids, which is a brain chemical that really quiets down the inner suffering of the mind. So worrying, rumination, frustrations, self-criticism, stress, all of that quiets down. Also, physical pain and endocannabinoids also enhance baseline well-being and pleasure. And so whether you’re running or cycling or swimming, people who get in that kind of flow state of movement often report this real enhanced mental well-being. Sometimes it feels empowering and sometimes it feels peaceful. But that brain chemistry is really different than what people might be experiencing. In my dance class, where we are setting things off with music that’s going to give you an immediate adrenaline and endorphin rush. And so if you’re doing a workout where you’re listening to music you love, that’s high energy. You’re moving to the beat and you’re doing things that really get your heart rate up. That’s going to have a different biochemical profile. It’s not necessarily that flow state where you just feel so much better. It often is more like euphoria. You feel incredible and you’ve got those endorphins. And that brain chemistry also really helps you feel connected to other people. We know that mindful forms of movement, as well as moving outdoors in nature, tends to put the brain in a state of this, heightened awareness to the present moment that feels like vitality and connection to life that has a lot in common with that runner’s high, where people often feel a relief from inner chatter and stress and worrying, but it’s working on a different biochemical level. It’s almost like meditation. It’s changing which systems of the brain are most active, and putting you in a state that’s like meditation. And we know that if you’ve just if you have been sitting sedentary for a while and you move any part of your body in a way that requires even just a little bit of energy. I could stay seated, I could just put on a song I love, lip sync with my hands in my arms for a couple of minutes, and I’m going to get a boost in dopamine and adrenaline, which is biologically required to go from not moving to moving. And that change in chemistry tends to make people feel more energized and in a better mood. And that’s an effect you can get in as little as a couple of minutes. Like, what’s your favorite form of exercise?

I like I like to run, I like to run and swim. I do triathlons. I, I bike as well, but I’ve been biking indoors more and then I do some resistance training.

Do you get that flow state that I was describing?

Yeah, mostly on the runs. I will get that. But, you know, it’s interesting and I and I made a note to ask you this because I’m really curious when you run…

Oh I don’t run.

You don’t run.

I do not run. It’s just like there’s some, some part of my mind that’s like, why am I running when I could be dancing, you know.

‘And the dancing or the yoga – do you do that by yourself? Or is it always with other people?

Yoga I do by myself. Mostly I’m doing it like late at night as a transition kind of practice.

What do you what are you thinking about? Like, do you think about something that you’re trying to solve, like a problem? Do you just let your mind wander? What do you where’s your head?

So both are possible. So the type of of yoga that I’ve trained in the most, you just focus on your breath while you’re doing it. There’s a real concentrated attention to the breath that makes it like meditation. And that has been very helpful for me when I need to actually stop thinking about, like when I need to go to sleep and I need to get the book out of my head, or I need to think, I can’t solve this problem with my family tonight. I have to wait until I can call someone tomorrow morning. I know some people experience that in running too. Moving your body seems to open people up to new perspectives, with an increased sense of optimism and confidence that that something is workable, that a situation is not hopeless.

I think from your books and from listening to your talks, there’s a benefit to exercise and movement. And then there’s obviously a benefit to to being social. You combine them.

Yes, I mean exercise. So people who exercise, they report being less lonely. They report having better relationships with others. And for reasons that range from the biochemical and how, like the brain chemistry of exercise primes you to be more social to to be able to connect with others better. Like if you are socially anxious and you exercise, by the end of that workout, you’re going to be almost like a more extroverted version of yourself. So it’s like fascinating at that, that micro level. But also we know that people form friendships and communities of support through movement, whether it’s strength training or running. So it’s it’s really it’s almost everything about movement, really allows us to be the, the best social versions of ourselves.

Yeah. Like that. What would you say you put on the, the bravest version of yourself after your workouts? I, I really like that.

Cardio does that for me during times of, of grief. And then, during the pandemic when we experienced the sudden shutdown and I was very isolated during those times, I found that intense cardio training, it was so necessary. Like otherwise, my slide into depression would be so. It’s so biological. For me, I shut down. It’s like my brain and my body say, I don’t want to get out of bed. I don’t want to do any of this life thing.

If you were to think about movement from a dosing perspective, higher doses for short amounts of time or lower doses for longer amounts of time.

‘It’s it’s all has to do with who you are, what is actually possible in your life and what kind of outcome you’re looking for. So if someone were to come to me and say, I’m really interested in movement for mental health because I’m struggling with grief or depression or addiction or anxiety. In that case, I could say pretty clearly that clinical trials and research says you should be moving every day or almost every day, but you don’t have to do anything that intense. So it can really be anything. You could be strength training, you could be gardening, you could be walking, you could be swimming. You can do what you want to do. And if you’re moving 20, 30, maybe 40 minutes seems to be like maximum you you would ever want to for this particular type of effect and do it almost every day if you can, at least a couple times a week. That dose seems to lead to to really significant benefits. But if you were just to say I’m overwhelmed by life right now, I would say, can you find the two minutes, find a TikTok edit of a song right, put on something that is upbeat or that makes you feel better and do anything, even if you just stand up or if you lip sync with your hands, or if you’re the kind of person who likes to do squats and push ups, you’re welcome to or stretch. You will feel better and that feel better effect can last. There are studies showing a lasting mood boost, an energy boost from 2 to 3 minutes of movement that could extend for a couple of hours. That is a real dose, and it takes as much time as, you know, grabbing a soda or having a coffee. So I would recommend to people if you just want to feel better, you could find these kind of like exercise snacks that take the same amount of time as grabbing a real snack. And then if you were to ask me, if you were to say, Kelly, I want the type of movement that is going to transform my life, you know, then I’d say, great – set a goal, like find a community. You could you can commit to movement during different periods of your life in ways that give you a sense of of structure that it can, like control the chaos that you feel in your life or that can help you recover from major disruptions in your life. Sometimes people need a big dose. They need to train for something, or they need to find a community that’s going to, like, embrace them and give them a totally different experience of life. And many people who have suffered deeply. Find that that version of movement is exceptionally powerful. A lot of the stories in my book are people who got immersed in a type of movement after dealing with something very painful and difficult. So it’s the whole it’s the whole scale. I know you asked about dose and that was a very non prescriptive answer, but but I feel like it’s good news because it’s like nothing is too small to have a benefit. And also if you’re somebody who really values movement what I’m saying is it does matter. And there’s there’s a reason to commit if if it is giving you what you need in life.

Yeah. So you have endocannabinoids, you have endorphins, you have dopamine. And then there are these hope molecules. What are those?

Our muscles do more than just move our bones around or stabilize our skeleton. Our muscles are almost like endocrine organs. They manufacture these molecules that they can release into the bloodstream, that then travel around and affect all of our organs. And some of them can cross the blood brain barrier and affect your brain, including your mood and your mental health and your brain health. And your muscles store these molecules and they release them during muscle contraction. Like any form of movement. And I came across this term hot molecules in one of the first papers to describe how exercise can support mental health. And they were talking about some of these particular molecules that muscles release into your bloodstream when you exercise. That makes you more resilient to stress and help people recover from trauma. And I think that this is such an incredible way to understand what exercise is doing, because it it allows you to view your body as an ally, as a resource. I always say that exercise is like an intravenous dose of hope, and it’s any form of movement that you’re willing to do with any part of your body that you can still move. I think this is one of the the coolest bits of the science of, of movement and exercise, particularly because of how it allows us to feel like our body is our friend. It’s our partner, not something we’re trying to fix or control through movement.

‘A quick note here – Kelly’s description of hope molecules – pretty powerful. In medical speak, what she is calling hope molecules are a type of chemical messenger called myokines. M-Y-O-K-I-N-E-S . These are particles released into your bloodstream by your muscle every time you move, and certain myokines travel to your brain where they do have this antidepressant effect. So in a nutshell, these myokines are playing a therapeutic role when we work out or when we simply move around. It’s pretty cool, right? But I also wanted to know this. Is it possible to overdo it? Is it possible to create too much of a good thing?

Can you overdose on these chemicals?

‘I don’t know if you can-, I don’t think you can overdose on a myo kind. You can become dependent on exercise. And I think that I think exercise dependance is such an interesting psychological case, because in many instances, it’s actually really healthy. And when people get into, like the worst version of overdoing exercise, it’s actually almost always because exercise is being used to try to control the body or appearance. And it’s quite different from how we’ve been talking about movement. You know, that exercise addiction that comes from people who become obsessed with weight loss or feeling like their body needs to look a certain way? And that’s sort of the other side of how you might overdose on exercise. But I think for most people, most people are living in a state of not having enough. I think most people would benefit from moving a little bit more and experiencing more forms of movement that have different effects on how you feel.

People will tune in to this podcast and they’ll say that it’s about movement and exercise, and that’s often framed as a, you know, a way to burn calories, to lose weight, to help with your cardiovascular health. I think that’s sort of a prevalent way that people look at exercise. Should we be framing this differently?

‘There’s research showing that people who think about movement in that way are less likely to find a form of movement they enjoy and will stick to. There are other ways to think about movement that make it much more likely that you will move more. It’s finding something you enjoy. Thinking of movement as a way to spend time with other people and a meaningful challenge. Those are the three motivations. And enjoyment doesn’t have to be, you know, fun. Enjoyment can be – I feel better while I’m doing it. I feel better because I did it.

After the break, more of my conversation with health psychologist Kelly McGonigal. Exercise pills might be in our future, but she’s going to explain why she probably would not take them herself. And also, we’re going to go deep on the distinctions between happiness and joy.

I’m curious how you would respond to something that I heard recently, which was that, humans are not necessarily hardwired for happiness. Like, it’s it’s not to say an adaptive trait, like, you know, the idea that you avoid trauma, that you, that you have progeny, you know, all of that, that makes sense. That’s how species survive. But happiness, in some ways is a luxury is how it was sort of just described to me. What do you think?

‘I think it’s definitely true that if you define happiness as feeling like everything is great, feeling, no worries. You know, some people have a definition of happiness that is really this, this ideal state of well-being. We’re not adapted for that. And that’s not really people’s experience of life. But there’s a type of happiness. And I’m really interested in, joy that I think humans are adapted for. And joy is the capacity to respond to moments in life with, a sense of uplift, to allow the good in life to make you feel like life is worth living. That absolutely, humans have that capacity and it helps us survive. So, I think that if you, if you think that happiness is everything is okay, and I have no worries in life, I don’t I don’t think there’s any –.that’s not hardwired into us. But if you live something heavier than you’ve ever lifted before, and you feel proud of yourself and someone congratulates you, and maybe you feel that like, yes, that we’re hard wired for and to be able to remember it later on and feel really boosted in your confidence. Or you see something in nature that catches your attention and it gives you that little uplift of hope and you’re like, wow, life is interesting. That’s a kind of happiness that humans are hardwired for, because it’s like a little jolt that, that renews literally our enthusiasm about life. And so what I love about movement is it actually creates so many opportunities for that type of joy.

What is your what is your daily movement routine like?

You know, so I’m just coming off a period of, of like really unusual lifestyle because I was trying to finish a book manuscript. So that was like just coping and I wasn’t moving as much as I needed to. So I’m almost like rehabbing myself now, to try to, to re incorporate movement throughout the day instead of sitting in a chair for, you know, all day long. I’m teaching one or two dance classes a day, and then I’m typically doing something else for myself. Whether that’s a yoga practice or strength training. And I also walk. So I walk to the studio today and I’ll walk back to campus later to teach. So that’s a that’s a lot of activity. And I think of that, that walking time as an opportunity to to think and reflect.

Congratulations on the manuscript. That’s yeah, that’s I know that’s getting that over the finish line. Those are those are challenging. What what can you just give us a little bit of a preview. What’s the book about?

It’s about joy.

Perfect.

‘It’s about embracing joy as not something that is frivolous or self-indulgent or out of reach until your life is perfect and free of problems. It’s really about embracing the capacity for joy as something that affirms the value of life and helps us connect with others. And is a way to find meaning even when life is difficult.

The idea of accomplishing something like that, in this case, the book. There’s a from what you’re describing, a certain amount of stress that comes with that. It got in the way of maybe of your regular activities, regular movement schedule, things like that. How do you how do you balance that kind of thriving and striving with happiness? Do you need that striving in order to be happy?

No. I mean, I personally don’t. The happiness for me of writing comes, you know, in a few years when the book is published and somebody sends me an email and they describe how it helped them, that’s the moment I write for. And I think a lot of things in life that are really meaningful, but often day to day are stressful. A lot of people feel that way about their jobs or certain caregiving demands. There’s a lot of like the day to day stuff where you’re just in it and getting through it. But then there are these moments where you, you realize, well, it might not have been that every moment was blissful, but I feel like that time that I spent was a value.

You know, I’ve been thinking a lot about this sort of concept, you know, for the for the podcast season. And it’s interesting, I think that, when I’ve taken on a hard project, there’s times when I’m like, why did I do this? I’m just feeling really stressed. But I also realize that some of my greatest moments of happiness have been when I have gotten it done. Maybe the right way to phrase it is not that I needed to suffer in order to have the happiness, but the idea that the sense of accomplishment, was such a such a significant thing. Like, I think my peak level of happiness was higher as a result of having taken on something challenging and actually completing it. Is that is that the case for you?

‘Yes. And I think that that’s kind of a universal human experience that if you don’t appreciate it, it can be sometimes possible to miss it, but that human beings often feel best psychologically when they’ve done something hard, something hard and meaningful. But when people go through discomfort and adversity and failure, but they they believe that it it has there’s a purpose for it or it makes a contribution to others, or it changes the way they think about themselves. When you can find that meaning attached to it, for many people, that’s the peak happiness. It’s a feeling good that’s not like rah rah – I’m so excited happy. It’s this deep sense of of, of meaning really.

And people are probably listening to the podcast and saying, you know, a lot of this intuitively makes sense. I get that I feel better when I’m moving, when I have movement as part of my life. And now Kelly’s been able to give me a real description of what’s happening in the brain. My mom, who’s 80 years old, has always been an exercise her whole life. She will do these these brisk walks. But you’ll also go to the gym and do resistance training. Just a very fit person. And then she had an accident, and she fell, and she actually broke a bone in her back. And it really sidelined her for a long period of time. What do you say to people who are in that phase of life? They now struggle with pain. They may struggle with mobility. They may struggle with something like an injury of something. How do they get to still experience happiness through movement?

Yeah. So in my book, almost every story that I tell and every community I visit is actually meant for people in a circumstance like that. So I think there are really two ways to think about it. One is to know that. If any part of your body can still move, there is probably a community or a way to experience movement that you can find meaningful or empowering or stress relieving. I will, I will have people come to my dance class who are in chairs dancing with their hands. And it’s still a beautiful experience of expression and music and community. So sometimes it’s it’s possible. And you often have to find the community who understands. Because a lot of people have thought very, very hard about how to make movement possible across the lifespan. Even in hospice care, people are still moving. But the other part is, sometimes it’s not possible. Sometimes the pain is too intense or you’re in a recovery. Maybe you can move your face or your hands, but there’s not anything that we would think of as exercise or sports going on. And I always encourage people to think about the the forms of movement that are most embraced around the world. So things like music, and you can lie in a hospital bed and listen to music you love, and you can feel music in your body that is similar to how you might feel it while dancing, and it’s still a real joy. You can experience being in nature and it might require someone assisting, helping you be outdoors. And maybe it’s about breathing in nature rather than exercising in nature. And sometimes you just you skip to the joy and you allow yourself to think about what movement gave you access to.

‘There’s people who may be listening, thinking look, I can move just fine, but I don’t really enjoy exercise. I don’t enjoy something that’s sort of coordinated like that. Scientists are looking into the idea of an exercise pill. And I hate to be reductionist about this, but, you know, this is how society works sometimes. The idea that could a medicine simulate the benefits of exercise — good idea, bad idea? And is it possible?

As a psychologist? I don’t want a pill that’s going to replace having people smile when they see me. Like, there are certain aspects of how I experience movement. I don’t want a pill that replaces how good it feels to move to a song that I love. I don’t know if it’ll ever be possible to find that pill. It might be possible to find the pill that does the effect of myokines, which would be great. I mean, if we find medicines that have biochemical effects that enhance our brain health and our physical health. I’m all for that. My direct experience is that movement does more than that, and I deeply value the more of them. And you describe the sense of meaning you have from training for an athletic event. Now, that too, I don’t know that a a pill is going to replace that. So bring on the pill. And also let me keep teaching dance classes.

There you go. I mean, I guess one doesn’t have to obviate the other. Yeah. If you were to imagine a Venn diagram, does happiness and satisfaction overlap heavily for you?

‘That’s a really interesting question. No. I’m just not competitive. So achievement is is like unrelated to happiness for me. But contribution is very connected to happiness for me. And I would say that happiness for me, it’s being able to experience positive things in life that are just inherently good. Like, I was watching a baby bird call for its parents to feed it on the tree in my backyard this morning. That is an inherent good to me. That’s happiness. Teaching my dance class this morning. That’s happiness. Thinking that maybe this conversation we’re having — I hope somebody heard something that they needed to hear that that’s, like, inherently good. Those are the things that are contributing to my happiness.

This this idea of satisfaction and happiness is something that I’ve really I’ve struggled with it, to be honest, Kelly. I think that, I’m a happy guy and I’m optimistic as well, despite, I think sometimes what’s happening in the world, I can take away some of that optimism. But I think I have what I’ve started to coined as a constructive dissatisfaction. I get some power and some fuel from being dissatisfied. And as long as I don’t let it grow too much, grow to the point where it overpowers the Venn diagram of happiness. And and it’s a tension. It’s a it’s a regular tension for me.

I think that’s beautiful. The because dissatisfaction often is the the soil in which growth and positive change happens and dissatisfaction doesn’t actually have to be a lack of appreciation or gratitude. You can if you can envision a better future for yourself or others. It requires feeling a gap between how things are and how things could be.

I don’t know about you, but I felt really good after that conversation. When people ask me about my accomplishments and which ones mean the most to me, I often think about my role as a father, a husband, and the work I do as a neurosurgeon and journalist. But talking to Kelly reminds me that my accomplishments during workouts in sports, triathlons, cycling, even the sit ups I do most mornings, they also contribute to my overall sense of happiness and joy. And I do appreciate the distinction that Kelly makes between exercise and movement. And since this conversation, I’ve been evaluating my own fitness goals and what I really want to get out of my routine. Kelly reminds me that it’s okay if I want to run faster, swim longer, or if I simply just want to feel present and enjoy nature. And most of all, she reminded me to be grateful to my body for just existing and allowing me to do everything I do each day. It’s amazing what your body can do, from breathing to thinking to lifting weights. As the saying goes, if you have a body, you’re an athlete. And last but not least, we’ve been asking you all season long to share how you chase life. We’ve gotten some really inspiring responses.

Hi, I’m Casey and I live in San Diego and the way I chase life is by walking. I work from home so this is part of my exercise, dinner planning, work, problem solving, bird and plant identification time, and general time for decompression. Sometimes I stop in the park to do Tai chi. Mostly, mostly I just reflect on all that I’m grateful for. Thanks for having such a great podcast.

And next week on Chasing Life. There’s a lot happening in the world right now. We’re going to explore ways to find hope, especially in times of uncertainty, chaos, even despair. Dr. Gabor Marti is an expert on trauma, and he’s going to share how he helps people weather hard times.

‘I mean, you deal with the question of happiness. Let’s use another word for it – joy. We’re wired for joy. And the question we have to ask is what happens in life to block our joy?

That’s next week. Chasing life is a production of CNN audio. Our podcast is produced by Eryn Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker, and Jesse Remedios. Our senior producer and showrunner is Felicia Patinkin. Andrea Kane is our medical writer, and Dan Dzula is our technical director. And the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Lickteig. With support from Jamus Andrest, Jon Dianora and Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Leni Steinhardt, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Ben Tinker, Amanda Sealy, and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.