New Mexico In Focus | Policing the Police & The Significance of the Afro-Frontier | Season 17 | Episode 20 | PBS

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, POLICING THE POLICE.

ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR TIM KELLER WANTS TO YANK THE TROUBLED CITIZEN OVERSIGHT OF APD OUT FROM UNDER THE CITY COUNCIL AFTER MONTHS OF DELAYS.

>> Davis: IT ULTIMATELY IS THE CITY COUNCIL’S ROLE TO HOLD THE ADMINISTRATION ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TWO BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

>> Lou: AND AN AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN LOOKS BACK AT THE HISTORY OF BLACKDOM, A FREEDOM COLONY FOUNDED IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO AT THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY AND WHAT IT MEANS TODAY.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

SINCE FORMING IN 2020, THE NONPROFIT GROUP FREE FLOW NEW MEXICO HAS DISTRIBUTED MONTHLY MENSTRUAL PRODUCTS AT NO COST IN AN ATTEMPT TO DECREASE PERIOD POVERTY IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

THIS YEAR, FREE FLOW INSTALLED THREE PERIOD PODS IN SANTA FE.

THEY ARE SELF SERVICE KIOSKS WITH PERIOD PRODUCTS AVAILABLE 24 HOURS A DAY.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY’S SHOW, NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT ANTONIO GONZALES SPEAKS TO THE DIRECTOR OF THE ORGANIZATION ABOUT THE PROJECT AND WHY FREE ACCESS TO THOSE PRODUCTS IS SO IMPORTANT.

AND IN ABOUT A HALF HOUR, DR. TIMOTHY NELSON STOPS BY THE STUDIOS TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, BLACKDOM, NEW MEXICO, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE AFRO FRONTIER 1900 TO 1930.

CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS ASKS DR. NELSON ABOUT THE FREEDOM COLONIES ORIGIN AND HOW THOSE BLACK SETTLERS SOUGHT TO ACHIEVE FRONTIER INDEPENDENCE.

BEFORE THAT, IN JUST ABOUT 15 MINUTES, THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION, NORMAN GUAM, DROPS IN AS HE HAS DONE FOR THE LAST DECADE TO UPDATE US ON NEW MEXICO’S WATER PROBLEMS AND POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS.

GUAM NOW THE PRESIDENT OF NEW MEXICO WATER ADVOCATES TALKS WITH OUR LANDS LAURA PASKUS ABOUT THE 2023 WATER SECURITY PLANNING ACT AND WHAT ACTIONS THE STATE SHOULD TAKE NOW TO PROTECT OUR COMMUNITIES.

BUT, FIRST, WE ZOOM IN ON MAYOR TIM KELLER’S IDEA TO TAKE OVERSIGHT OF ALBUQUERQUE’S CITIZEN POLICE REVIEW SYSTEMS AWAY FROM CITY COUNCIL AND HAND PART OF IT TO THE CITY’S INSPECTOR GENERAL AND THE REST TO HIMSELF.

THE MAYOR CITES STAFFING WHOAS, A LACK OF TRAINING FOR POLICE OVERSIGHT BOARD MEMBERS AND OTHER PROBLEMS TO JUSTIFY HIS PROPOSAL.

AND HE BELIEVES THE MOVE WOULD SPELL THE LONG AWAITED END OF A DECADE-LONG FEDERAL CONSENT DECREE THAT MANDATED SWEEPING REFORMS AT THE STATE’S LARGEST LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

BUT OUTGOING COUNCIL PRESIDENT, PAT DAVIS, SAYS THE MAYOR’S IDEA IS MISGUIDED AND WOULD KILL WHAT IS LEFT OF PUBLIC TRUST IN TRULY INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT OF APD.

DAVIS SAT FOR AN INTERVIEW WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR TO EXPLAIN WHY HE THINKS CITY COUNCIL SHOULD REMAIN IN CHARGE.

>> Jeff: PAT DAVIS, WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Davis: THANKS, JEFF.

>> Jeff: WE WILL GET TO MAYOR KELLER’S PROPOSAL TO REMOVE THE CIVILIAN POLICE OVERSIGHT AGENCY AND THE CIVILIAN POLICE OVERSIGHT ADVISORY BOARD FROM UNDER THE CITY COUNCIL IN A MOMENT.

THOSE ARE SOME SERIOUSLY CLUNKY PROPER NOUNS.

I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN, HOWEVER, BY ASKING SORT OF A BIGGER QUESTION.

WHY IS CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT IMPORTANT ESPECIALLY FOR A DEPARTMENT LIKE APD?

>> Davis: REMEMBER THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, SORT OF THAT POLICING FUNCTION IS KIND OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AND MAYBE THE BIGGEST EXTENSION OF THE GOVERNMENT’S POWER OVER PEOPLE, RIGHT.

WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAKE AWAY A PERSON’S LIFE IF WE DETERMINE — THAT POLICE OFFICER DETERMINES AT THAT MOMENT THAT THEY HAVE COMMITTED SOMETHING THAT IS A DANGER TO OTHER PEOPLE.

THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE ON THAT DECISION, AND, QUITE FRANKLY, DEPARTMENTS LIKE APD HAVE HAD A REALLY BAD HISTORY FOR A REALLY LONG TIME OF IGNORING THE CONSTITUTIONAL REQUIREMENTS TO BE SURE THAT WE ARE GETTING AHEAD OF THAT, WE ARE INTERVENING, WE’RE THINKING ABOUT USE OF FORCE IN A WAY THAT MAKES IT THE LAST RESORT, NOT THE FIRST.

SO, IT’S NO MYSTERY.

APD HAS NOT DONE THIS WELL.

NOT UNDER THIS MAYOR, NOT UNDER THE LAST THREE OR FOUR MAYOR’S, NOT UNDER A NUMBER OF POLICE UNION MEMBERS.

ITS CULTURE OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES, SINCE THE 80’S AT LEAST, HAS DRAWN SERIOUS QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMUNITY AND ERODED OUR PUBLIC TRUST.

SO THE WAY YOU GET THAT BACK IS TO GIVE CIVILIANS THE OVERSIGHT OF THE AGENCY TO MAKE SURE THAT CIVILIANS ARE RECEIVING THE TYPE OF POLICE SERVICE THAT THEY DESERVE, WANT AND IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

WE HAVEN’T DONE THAT FOR ABOUT 40 YEARS AND WE ARE TRYING TO FIX THAT.

>> Jeff: SO EMPOWERING PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE TO HAVE A SAY IN THE WAY THEY ARE POLICED IS SORT OF WHAT I AM HEARING YOU SAY.

AND OBVIOUSLY THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FUNCTION.

HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, THE CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT SYSTEM IS FRANKLY A HOT MESS.

THE MAYOR SENT YOU A LETTER LAST WEEK AND I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THE UNDISPUTED FACTS, THE PARADE OF HORRIBLES, IF YOU WILL THAT ARE LAID OUT.

START WITH THIS.

TWO OF FIVE SEATS ON THAT BOARD ARE CURRENTLY FILLED.

THE BOARD HASN’T MET SINCE JANUARY LET ALONE DISCUSSED ANY SORT OF AN OFFICER MISCONDUCT CASE WHICH IS ITS FUNCTION.

THE OVERSIGHT AGENCY DOESN’T HAVE A PERMANENT LEADER AND THE CITY COUNCIL HAS YET TO HIRE THE CONTRACTOR WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIRING THAT PERMANENT LEADER.

COUNCILOR DAVIS, HOW CAN ANY OF THAT, LET ALONE ALL OF THAT, BE TRUE IN A CITY WHERE THE POLICE SHOOT MORE PEOPLE THAN ALMOST ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY?

>> Davis: THIS GETS BACK TO OUR HISTORY OF POLICE OVERSIGHT, CIVILIAN POLICE OVERSIGHT IN OUR CITY.

THIS IS, BY THE WAY YOU COUNT IT, THE THIRD OR FOURTH TIME THE CITY COUNCIL AND MAYOR HAVE TRIED TO COME UP WITH A STRUCTURE THAT WORKS.

AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE CITY COUNCIL, I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH THE BIG PRINCIPLE THAT THE CITY COUNCIL HAS NOT BEEN FAST ENOUGH TO MOVE THOSE NEW PIECES ALONG, BUT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE FIRST CPOA, THE ONE THAT WAS UNDER THE INITIAL VERSION OF THIS, AFTER THE CASA WAS IMPLEMENTED, AFTER THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION, THE OLD, OLD VERSION, IT REALLY DIDN’T WORK, RIGHT?

AFTER THREE OR FOUR YEARS THERE WAS A REWORK THAT COUNCILOR WINTER AND I WORKED ON TO REALLY TRY TO NARROW THE SCOPE, GIVE THEM MORE INSIGHT INTO APD BIG PICTURE POLICY AND LESS FOCUSED ON INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATIONS.

THAT GOT TO BE UNGOVERNABLE AND WE WENT THROUGH FOUR DIRECTORS BASICALLY IN A YEAR.

AND SO THE CITY COUNCIL UNDERTOOK A YEAR LONG PROCESS TO REVIEW THAT WHOLE THING.

WE LOOKED AT OTHER CITIES ON THE RECOMMENDATION OF DOJ, PLACES THAT WORKED, PLACES THAT DIDN’T.

AND WE RESTRUCTURED THAT LAST JANUARY.

SO THAT NEW CPOA, THE OVERSIGHT ADVISORY BOARD LEGISLATION, PASSED.

THE MAYOR DIDN’T ACT ON IT UNTIL IT WENT INTO EFFECT IN FEBRUARY.

THIS PAST FEBRUARY AND WE SAID, IT IS GOING TO TAKE US A YEAR TO DO THIS THE RIGHT WAY.

SO, OUR STAFF HAS BEEN WORKING WITH APD AND DOJ AND OTHER COMMUNITIES WHO HAVE DONE THIS A LITTLE FURTHER AHEAD OF US TO LOOK AT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

THE NEW ADVISORY BOARD IS NOT DESIGNED TO DO INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATIONS BECAUSE THE IDEA IS INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS PROBABLY DON’T HAVE THE EXPERTISE INDIVIDUALLY TO DO THAT INVESTIGATION AND SO WE GAVE THEM PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, TRAINING AND THIS GROUP WILL PROVIDE OVERSIGHT OF THOSE INVESTIGATORS, KIND OF LIKE THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT SITS OUTSIDE OF IT JUST LIKE THE DOJ HAD DONE.

>> Jeff: SO THIS ALL LIVES UNDER THE CITY COUNCIL, AT LEAST IN THE CURRENT ITERATION.

IS THIS JUST ONE OF THOSE THIS-TAKES-TIME THINGS OR HAVE THERE BEEN INDIVIDUAL SORT OF POINTS OF FAILURE OR CHALLENGES THAT HAVE COME UP IN THE PROCESS, TO TRY TO GET THIS RIGHT?

>> Davis: THERE IS A CONSISTENT CHALLENGE THAT WE CONTINUE TO COME BY.

WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO HAVE APPLIED TO BE ON THIS BOARD.

PART OF THAT IS THE HISTORY.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THE LAST ITERATION OF THE POLICE OVERSIGHT BOARD WHEN THEY WERE OVERSEEING INVESTIGATIONS AND POLICY AND ALL THOSE THINGS, SOME OF THOSE VOLUNTEER MEMBERS WERE WORKING 40 HOURS A WEEK AS VOLUNTEERS JUST TO GO TO ALL THE MEETINGS AND READ ALL THE POLICIES AND KEEP UP EVERYTHING.

IT WAS JUST TOO MUCH.

SO WE RESTRUCTURED THAT, BUT WE SAID IT IS GOING TO TAKE A YEAR.

HERE IS WHAT I TOLD THE MAYOR AND HERE IS WHAT WE WROTE BACK TO THE MAYOR LAST WEEK.

WORE ON TRACK TO DO THAT.

WE ACTUALLY APPOINTED THREE MEMBERS TO THAT BOARD, WE ARE ON TRACK TO GET TO A QUORUM.

ONE OF THEM RESIGNED AFTER DETERMINING THEY WERE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PERFORM THAT DUTY.

WE INTERVIEWED 11 OTHER CANDIDATES THAT HAVE BEEN INTERVIEWED AND QUALIFIED.

>> Jeff: FOR THE BOARD.

>> Davis: FOR THE BOARD ITSELF.

THEY ARE SCHEDULED TO BE INTRODUCED AT THE CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS ON THE 20TH WHICH ALLOWS US TO ACT ON THEM AT THE FIRST MEETING IN DECEMBER.

WE ARE ON TRACK TO HAVE A QUORUM OF THAT BOARD READY TO GO BY THE END OF THE YEAR AS PROMISED.

WE HAVE AN RFP OUT FOR THAT CONTRACT MONITOR TO HELP US DO THAT.

WE DETERMINED THAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW WHO THE BOARD MEMBERS WERE GOING TO BE AND BE SURE THEY UNDERSTOOD THE RULES BEFORE WE HAD A MONITOR TO SIT THERE AND WAIT.

WE DIDN’T HAVE ANYTHING FOR THEM TO DO UNTIL WE HAVE A BOARD.

SO WE ARE ON TRACK TO APPOINT THAT PERSON IN DECEMBER AND THEN HIRE A DIRECTOR.

BUT IT DOESN’T MEAN STUFF ISN’T HAPPENING.

WE HAVE AN ACTING DIRECTOR.

WE HAVE INVESTIGATORS.

THEY HAVE BEEN PRODUCING REPORTS AND DATA, AND SO WE’RE SEEING THOSE AND THEY ARE AVAILABLE BUT WE ARE AT THE END OF THE YEAR OF REBUILDING.

WE WANT TO HAND THE NEW CITY COUNCIL NEXT YEAR A FULLY FUNCTIONING BOARD UNDER THIS NEW PREMISE AND MODEL SO THEY CAN BE IN THE OVERSIGHT ROLE AND NOT IN THE REBUILDING ROLE THAT I HAVE BEEN IN FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS.

>> Jeff: YOU ALLUDED A MOMENT AGO TO THE HISTORY AND ATTEMPTS AT CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT IN THE CITY.

OSTENSIBLY THAT BEGAN BACK IN THE MID 90’S.

IT NEVER WORKED.

I DON’T THINK THERE IS ANY OBJECTIVE MEASURE THAT WOULD SAY WE EVER HAD A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT ALBUQUERQUE TRUSTED.

I THINK IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT THE FRAMEWORK FOR THE CURRENT SYSTEM WAS SORT OF BIRTHED IN 2014.

AND THAT WAS SORT OF ALONGSIDE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT’S FINDINGS OF USE OF EXCESSIVE FORCE AND FAILED LEADERSHIP AT APD AND CITY HALL.

YOU DID SORT OF GRAB A PIECE OUT OF MY HIPPOCAMPUS CALLED THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION.

I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THAT WORKED.

SO, THAT WAS THE OLD SYSTEM, PRIOR TO 2014.

THE POC.

THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER INVESTIGATED EXCESSIVE FORCE CASES AND OFFICER MISCONDUCT CASES UNDER THAT SCHEME.

ALL OF THAT LIVED UNDER THE ADMINISTRATION.

ONE OF THOSE INVESTIGATORS, A GUY NAMED JAY ROLAND PRODUCED AN INCREDIBLY SCATHING REPORT ABOUT PROBLEMS IN THE APD EVIDENCE ROOM.

NOT LONG AFTER THAT BEING PUBLISHED, JAY WAS NEVER HEARD FROM AGAIN.

THE TASKFORCE THAT CREATED THE NEW SYSTEM, ONE THING THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO THEM, AND I WROTE A LOT ABOUT THIS AT THE TIME, WAS MAKING SURE THAT THE SYSTEM WAS REMOVED FROM UNDER THE ADMINISTRATION.

THIS PLACED IT UNDER THE COUNCIL VERY INTENTIONALLY.

DID THEY GET THAT PART RIGHT.

>> Davis: 100%.

THE ONE THING WE KNOW IS THAT OUR HISTORY IN THE PAST, THE POLICE OVERSIGHT, AS YOU MENTIONED AND AS YOU WROTE ABOUT DECADES AGO, HAS BEEN UNDER THE ADMINISTRATION, GIVEN THEM THE ABILITY.

HERE IS WHAT REALLY DIDN’T WORK, WHEN YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THAT OLD WALKER LUNA REPORT, THIS IS THE CITY COUNCIL THAT WAS ALLEN ARMIJO AND SAM BREGMAN AND DID THEIR OWN STUDY ABOUT WHAT TO DO.

THEY PRODUCED THE POLICE OVERSIGHT COMMISSION AND BECAME THE CPOA.

WHAT THEY FOUND WAS THAT INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER WHEN THEY REPORT TO THE MAYOR, FOR EXAMPLE, SUDDENLY THE MAYOR, WHO NEGOTIATES UNION CONTRACTS, NEGOTIATED AWAY THE ABILITY OF THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW OFFICER TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE MORE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS OR TO GIVE THE PUBLIC A LONG FORM VIEW OF OFFICER MISCONDUCT.

THEY HAD TO LOOK AT OFFICER JEFF’S SINGLE INCIDENT AND NOT THE SEVEN THINGS IN A ROW THAT HAD LED UP TO THAT THAT HAD ALSO BEEN FOUND TO BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR OUTSIDE OF POLICY.

>> Jeff: NO PATTERN INQUIRY.

>> Davis: THAT IS A GREAT TERM FOR THAT.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED WAS ONCE THE MAYOR BOTH HAS CONTROL OVER THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE OVERSIGHT, AND THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT MAYOR, IT IS ANY MAYOR, YOU RUN INTO THE PROBLEM THAT YOU MENTIONED, WHICH IS WHAT IF THEY DECIDE, I AM NOT GOING TO ALLOW YOU TO INVESTIGATE THAT OR WORSE, WHAT IF I CONTRACTUALLY REMOVE YOUR AUTHORITY TO DO THAT WITH THE POLICE UNION IN NEGOTIATIONS, BOTH OF WHICH HAPPENED IN THE FORMER MODEL.

EVERY CITY THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS RIGHT OR BETTER THAN US, ENSURES THEY ARE WHOLLY INDEPENDENT.

AND THAT IS PART OF THE ARGUMENT, I THINK, THE MAYOR IS TRYING TO MAKE ABOUT MOVING THEM TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL.

IN THE CITY, THAT IS A QUASI INDEPENDENT AGENCY, CLEARLY, NOT ALWAYS — A LITTLE ADVERSARIAL WITH THE MAYOR AND THE CITY COUNCIL SO IF YOU WANT A BULLDOG AGENCY TO SORT OF TAKE ON THIS ROLE, INSPECTOR GENERAL IS NOT A BAD ONE, BUT THERE ARE FLAWS THERE TOO, BUT ABSOLUTELY.

INDEPENDENCE IS IMPORTANT.

AND DON’T FORGET IT ULTIMATELY IS THE CITY COUNCIL’S ROLE TO HOLD THE ADMINISTRATION ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TWO BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT.

SO THAT IS PART OF THEIR ROLE FOR OVERSIGHT IS TO BE SURE.

IF WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT GROUP OF COMMUNITY PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN EXPERTISE TO HELP US WITH THAT, WE SHOULD IMPLEMENT THAT.

THAT IS REALLY HOW WE SHOULD LOOK AT THIS.

IT IS ULTIMATELY THE CITY COUNCIL RESPONSIBLE BUT THEY ARE ASKING FOR EXPERTS TO HELP.

>> Jeff: GOT YOU.

SO THAT PEOPLE DON’T FORGET, THE CITY GOVERNMENT HAS GOTTEN SO LARGE NOW.

YOU MENTIONED HOLDING THE ADMINISTRATION ACCOUNTABLE.

APD IS THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS APD.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE THAT GETS SAID, BECAUSE SOMETIMES PEOPLE VIEW THAT AS A SEPARATE SET OF ENTITIES.

>> Davis: PEOPLE COME TO CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS ASKING US TO TAKE, YOU KNOW, FIRE THIS POLICE OFFICER BECAUSE OF WHAT I READ IN THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL OR A NEWSPAPER OR ON TV.

REMEMBER THE CITY COUNCILORS AREN’T ALLOWED TO GET INVOLVED IN PERSONNEL DECISIONS.

IN MANY CASES WE ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO KNOW WHAT TYPE OF DISCIPLINE WAS IMPOSED ON A CITY EMPLOYEE, IN A SPECIFIC CASE, OTHER THAN EMPLOYEES WHO COMMITTED THIS INFRACTION AND HAVE HAD THIS DISCIPLINE IMPOSED.

SO IT REALLY IS IMPORTANT THAT SOMEBODY WITH OVERSIGHT AUTHORITY BE ABLE TO LOOK, AS YOU MENTIONED IN THAT LONG-FORM VIEW, BUT ALSO IN A BIG PICTURE STATE, HOW MANY PEOPLE DID WE SHOOT LAST YEAR WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THAT?

I DON’T THINK AS FORMER POLICE OFFICER MYSELF AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF US ON THE CITY COUNCIL, I DON’T THINK THAT WE EVEN WE HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO LOOK AT ALL THOSE CASES AND DO THAT.

WE NEED SOMEBODY WHO DOES AND THAT SHOULD INFORM THE CITY COUNCIL.

>> Jeff: THE MAYOR WANTS TO TAKE THE CPOA PIECE AND PLACE THAT UNDER THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, AS YOU JUST MENTIONED.

HE WANTS TO TAKE VETTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR BOARD MEMBERS ON THE CIVILIAN BOARD AND ESSENTIALLY HANDLE THAT HIMSELF.

CAN HE JUST DO THAT WITH LIKE THE STROKE OF A PEN?

>> Davis: GOOD FOR THE CITY THAT HE CAN’T JUST DO THAT, BUT I THINK WHAT HE IS DOING IS STARTING A CONVERSATION AND HERE IS WHERE I THINK IT MAKES SENSE.

REMEMBER WE ARE 95% COMPLIANT WITH WHERE WE STARTED WITH DOJ ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN MONITORS.

WE HAVE GOTTEN 95% OF THE POLICY RIGHT AND WE ARE AT ABOUT 70, 80%, DEPENDING ON THE SECTION, IN TERMS OF IMPLEMENTING IT.

MEANING WE ARE DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY, WE ARE RECOGNIZING OUR FAILURES AND CORRECTING THEM.

IT DOESN’T MEAN WE HAVE TO BE 100%.

WE HAVE TO CORRECT THE PROBLEMS.

>> Jeff: YOU HAVE A SYSTEM IN PLACE TO SELF MONITOR, RIGHT?

>> Davis: THE FEEDBACK LOOP, RIGHT.

WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG, WE FIX IT AND WE CONTINUE TO IMPROVE.

THAT IS GOOD NEWS.

THE INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHT HAS BEEN A PROBLEM IN EVERY CITY THAT HAS HAD THESE ISSUES, IN PART, BECAUSE CITIZENS DON’T ALL AGREE ON WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT SERVICES THEM IN THE WAY THEY WANT TO SEE.

BUT ULTIMATELY, HAVING THE MAYOR MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHETHER THAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, NOT JUST TO THIS MAYOR, BUT ANY, IS PROBLEMATIC.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN OTHER PLACES.

WE LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ONATE STATUE AND THE MAYOR’S FIGHT WITH THE MUSEUM BOARD WHETHER THEIR RECOMMENDATION TO REMOVE OR RETURN THE STATUE, FOR EXAMPLE, ALIGNED WITH THEIR AGENDA.

AND THEY CHANGED OUT SOME MEMBERS OF THAT BOARD AT THAT TIME.

YOU KNOW, THESE ARE SOME BIG COMMUNITY CONVERSATIONS BUT TO YOUR POINT, WE HAVE A HISTORY.

WHEN MAYOR’S GET TO DECIDE WHO GETS TO BE IN CHARGE OF OVERSIGHT AND WHO GETS TO BE IN CHARGE OF TAKING ACTION AND DISCIPLINE, THOSE THINGS EVENTUALLY SORT OF MELD INTO ONE AND REALLY CAN JUST IGNORE BIG PROBLEMS AND THAT IS HOW WE GOT HERE.

>> JEFF: SO YOU MENTIONED THE DOJ CONSENT DECREE.

THE MAYOR HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR HE WOULD LIKE TO END FEDERAL OVERSIGHT OF OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

HE IS RUNNING FOR A THIRD TERM NEXT YEAR.

BEING ABLE TO END THE CONSENT DECREE WOULD OBVIOUSLY LOOK VERY NICE IN A CAMPAIGN AD.

FROM READING THE LETTER HE SENT TO THE COUNCIL, HE IS FRAMING THIS AS A WAY TO END THE CONSENT DECREE.

DO YOU VIEW THIS AS POLITICAL?

HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO THE MAYOR?

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS HIS MOTIVATION HERE.

>> Davis: THE MAYOR AND I TALK EVERY COUPLE OF WEEKS ON PURPOSE AND IN PERSON AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE HE SENT HIS LETTER.

AND I SHARED IT WITH OTHER COUNCILORS BUT I THINK IT IS SORT OF DEAD ON ARRIVAL FOR THE IDEA THAT WE WOULD GIVE THIS TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL.

I’LL BE DONE WITH MY TERM IN ANOTHER COUPLE OF WEEKS SO IT WILL ULTIMATELY BE UP TO THE NEXT COUNCIL IF THE MAYOR CAN WRANGLE THOSE VOTES.

BUT WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE COMMUNITY, INCLUDING ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS AND APD FORWARD PROCESS, WORKED WITH US FOR A YEAR TO COME UP WITH THIS NEW PROCESS.

TO SEE HOW THIS IS GOING TO WORK.

TO HAVE PROFESSIONAL TRAINED INVESTIGATORS, TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT MONITOR IN THE CITY COUNCIL AND TO HAVE AN ADVISORY BOARD OF CITIZENS WHO CAN LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE AND TELL US WHAT IS WORKING AND WHAT IS NOT.

REMEMBER WHEN CASA IS GONE, AND I THINK WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THE FACT, NOT THAT THEY ARE GONE.

LIKE I DON’T LIKE THE FRAME THAT WE ARE GETTING REALLY FROM APOA THAT SAYS OUR JOB IS TO GET THEM GONE.

NO, OUR JOB IS TO HAVE A COMMUNITY CONSTITUTIONAL POLICING AGENCY THAT DOESN’T VIOLATE PEOPLES’ RIGHTS.

SO, WHEN WE CAN PROVE WE DO THAT WE DESERVE TO NOT HAVE MOM AND DAD LOOKING OVER OUR SHOULDER, BUT WE HAVE TO PUT SOME OF THESE REFORM PIECES IN LEGISLATION SO THAT WHEN COUNCILORS LIKE ME OR OTHERS ARE GONE, WE DON’T LOSE THAT INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE.

THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

WHAT CONCERNS US IS PUTTING THE CPOA UNDER INSPECTOR GENERAL OR ANYWHERE ELSE WHERE THE AGENDA COULD GET LOST.

AT THE VERY LEAST, AT THE VERY LEAST, WE HAVE A GROUP OF CITIZENS WHO CAN COME TO THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING AND SAY, WE WORK FOR YOU, THEY ARE NOT GIVING US WHAT WE NEED, WE NEED YOUR ATTENTION.

WHEN THOSE FOLKS DON’T REPORT — WHEN THEY REPORT TO THE APD AND THEY ALL REPORT TO THE SAME PEOPLE, THERE IS NO WHISTLEBLOWER ANYMORE AND THAT IS WHAT GOT APD IN TROUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> Jeff: GOT YOU.

SO, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU THINK THIS IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL WITH THIS PARTICULAR COUNCIL.

>> Davis: THIS PROVISION.

>> Jeff: THIS PROVISION, RIGHT.

SO, WHAT I WANT TO ASK IS OBVIOUSLY YOU’RE LEAVING THE COUNCIL, AS YOU JUST MENTIONED IN A FEW WEEKS, SO I AM NOT GOING TO ASK YOU TO PROGNOSTICATE ON WHAT THE NEXT COUNCIL MIGHT DO, BUT WHAT IS YOUR HOPE LEAVING THE COUNCIL FOR WHAT BURQUENOS SHOULD EXPECT FROM CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT GOING FORWARD?

YOU GOT ABOUT A MINUTE.

>> Davis: REALLY QUICKLY, WHAT WE KNOW NOW IS THAT IT WAS ASKING TOO MUCH TO ASK INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS TO VOLUNTEER 40 OR 50 HOURS A WEEK TO LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CASES OF POLICE MISCONDUCT AND THEIR PERCEPTIONS OF THAT WERE VASTLY DIFFERENT.

AND OFTEN THEY DIDN’T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO APPLY A CONSTITUTIONAL LENS THAT DOJ WOULD APPLY TO THE OFFICER WERE THEY PROSECUTED, FOR EXAMPLE.

WHAT WE HAVE ASKED IS THAT NEW BOARD IS GOING TO GIVE US BIG PICTURE STUFF.

THEY ARE GOING TO MONITOR THE PROVISIONS OF THE CASA THAT WE PUT IN LAW SO THAT WHEN CASA IS NOT HERE, WE STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO HOLD THEM TO.

THEY ARE GOING TO TELL US HOW MANY OFFICERS WE HAVE WORKING, HOW MANY OF THEM COMMITTED USED FORCE AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WERE CONSTITUTIONAL AND HOW THE DEPARTMENT IS DOING.

THIS IS THE OVERSIGHT AGENCY.

FROM A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL, THESE ARE THE INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATORS THAT ARE GOING TO BE THE COPS WATCHING THE COPS, RIGHT?

THEY ARE EXPERIENCED LAW ENFORCEMENT FOLKS APPLYING THE STANDARD TO BE SURE THAT APD SYSTEMS WORK.

IT IS THE EFRS SYSTEM.

IT IS THE EXTERNAL FORCE REVIEW SYSTEM THAT DOJ APPLIED TO APD WHEN THEY TRIED TO DO THEIR OWN INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND FAILED.

WE ARE CODIFYING THOSE PROCESSES TO BE SURE THEY ARE THERE BEYOND ANY OF US.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THAT.

SO, WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD EXPECT IS MORE DATA ABOUT HOW APD REACTS AND HOW MANY USES OF FORCE THEY USE ON A REGULAR BASIS BECAUSE WE HAVE AN OUTSIDE AGENCY AND WE ARE NOT RELYING ON APD TO DO THEIR OWN REPORTING.

AND THEY ARE GOING TO SEE MORE INVESTIGATIONS AND MORE TRANSPARENCY WHEN APD DOESN’T CLOSE THAT FEEDBACK LOOP.

I THINK YOU’RE GOING TO SEE FEWER AND FEWER LISTS OF JUST OFFICERS DID A BAD THING AND APD DID THE RIGHT THING.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT GENERALLY THE PUBLIC IS GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN BECAUSE THAT IS WORKING.

BUT WHAT YOU SHOULD SEE IS THE CITY COUNCIL IS GOING TO BE OUT OF THE REBUILDING MODE AND INTO THE COMPLIANCE MODE.

AND SOMEBODY HAS GOT TO DO THAT.

SO, KEEPING THAT ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MAYOR AND THE COUNCIL, IF EVERYTHING IS WORKING GREAT, THEY SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON OTHER THINGS, BUT WHEN SOMETHING FALLS APART AGAIN, IT IS GOING TO BE INCUMBENT ON THE NEW CITY COUNCIL TO RAISE THAT FLAG AND USE THEIR OVERSIGHT AUTHORITY.

I’LL BE THE FIRST TO SAY THE CITY COUNCIL HASN’T DONE A GOOD ENOUGH JOB IN OVERSIGHT IN OTHER AREAS OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS PARTICULARLY ON SOME OF THE BIG TICKET STUFF.

AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO DOING THAT.

>> Jeff: THAT WAS A LONG MINUTE.

PAT DAVIS, THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK ON THE SHOW.

>> Nelson: FOR THE MOST PART IN BLACKDOM THEY WERE ABLE TO GENERATE GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

THE PROBLEM CAME WHEN THEY WERE IN THE CITIES LIKE A ROSWELL, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN BLACKDOM CHILDREN WHEN THEY MOSTLY MIGRATED OUT OF BLACKDOM INTO ROSWELL, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY WENT TO THE HIGH SCHOOL AND WERE NOT ABLE TO GET THEIR DIPLOMAS, EVEN THOUGH THEY COMPLETED ALL CREDITS, FOR EXAMPLE.

THAT IS WHERE THE PRESSURE BUILT UP BECAUSE PART OF BLACKDOM WAS TO HAVE A BRANCH OF BLACKDOM BUT ALSO MAINTAIN THEMSELVES IN THE CITY.

>> Lou: THAT INTERVIEW FROM RUSSELL WITH DR. TIMOTHY NELSON IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO OUR NEXT STORY, WE WANT TO SHARE THE KELLER ADMINISTRATION’S RESPONSE TO OUR QUESTIONS ABOUT CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT.

THE MAYOR SPOKESPERSON SAYS HIS LETTER TO THE COUNCIL WAS MERELY A SUGGESTION TO, QUOTE, PROD COUNCILORS.

HERE IS PART OF THE STATEMENT.

QUOTE, APD IS ALMOST DONE WITH THE CONSENT DECREE AND ONE OF THE ONLY ITEMS LEFT IS COUNCIL’S CPOA WORK.

WE ALL JUST NEED TO GET OFF THE DIME AND SEE REFORM THROUGH FOR OUR COMMUNITY, END QUOTE.

YOU CAN READ THE MAYOR’S FULL RESPONSE ON OUR WEBSITE AND IN THIS WEEK’S NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS NEWSLETTER.

NOW WE TURN TO FORMER NEW MEXICO INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR NORMAN GUAM WHO IS BACK ON THE SHOW TO TALK ABOUT WATER PLANNING IN THE STATE.

OVER THE PAST DECADE GUAM WORKED FROM OUTSIDE GOVERNMENT URGING LAWMAKERS TO FUND NEW MEXICO’S WATER AGENCIES AND TO PROTECT THE STATE’S WATERS.

THESE DAYS, HE IS PRESIDENT OF THE GROUP, NEW MEXICO WATER ADVOCATES.

HE TALKS WITH OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS ABOUT THE 2023 WATER SECURITY PLANNING ACT.

SOME OF THE SERIOUS PROBLEMS AROUND THE STATE AND THE NEED FOR COMMUNITY DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

>> Laura: NORM GAUM, WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Gaume: I AM GLAD TO BE HERE, LAURA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: A FEW MONTHS AGO WE HAD INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR HANNAH RISELEY-WHITE ON THE SHOW AND WE TALKED A BIT ABOUT WATER PLANNING IN NEW MEXICO.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU FEEL WATER PLANNING IN NEW MEXICO IS GOING?

>> Gaume: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT I THINK THE LEGISLATION THAT PASSED IN 2023, AND IT PASSED WITHOUT A SINGLE NO VOTE, NOT IN COMMITTEE, NOT ON EITHER FLOOR, SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR, IT WAS A STATE ENGINEER BILL.

SO, THE AGENCIES SUPPORT IT.

IT HAS SUCH POTENTIAL FOR NEW MEXICO.

BUT IT IS COMPLEX AND THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION AND THE STATE ENGINEER OFFICE ARE JUST BURIED IN WORK.

THEY DON’T HAVE THE CAPACITY THAT WE REALLY NEED THEM TO HAVE AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE HAS AND THE GOVERNORS, PAST GOVERNORS, HAVE ACTUALLY CUT THEIR STAFF, YOU KNOW, IN THIS AGE WHERE WE NEED — WE ARE EXPERIENCING WATER SCARCITY, WE NEED PLANNING.

SO, THE GOOD NEWS IS WE HAVE A GREAT NEW LAW THAT COULD BE A TIPPING POINT, A PIVOT POINT, FROM WHICH PROGRESS ACCELERATES.

REALITIES ARE THAT IT IS GOING TO BE SLOW GETTING OFF THE GROUND BECAUSE OF CAPACITY LIMITATIONS, BOTH AT THE STATE LEVEL AND IN THE REGIONS THAT HAVE TO DO THE PLANNING.

>> Laura: DESPITE ENORMOUS BUDGET SURPLUS THAT EVERYBODY LIKES TO TALK ABOUT, ARE WE FUNDING WATER PLANNING AND WATER AGENCIES?

>> Gaume: NO, THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> Laura: I HAVE HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT ONGOING WATER GOVERNANCE ISSUES THAT REQUIRE IMMEDIATE ATTENTION OR ACTION.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE?

>> Gaume: WELL, OGALLALA AQUIFER, COMMUNITIES, CLOVIS, PORTALES, TEXACO, I UNDERSTAND TEXACO AND PORTALES LITERALLY RAN OUT OF WATER THIS SUMMER.

THEIR WELLS RAN DRY.

THEY ARE GETTING TRICKLES OUT OF THEIR SHOWERS.

WE HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THAT PROBLEM FOR DECADES IN THIS STATE AND WE HAVE LET THE STATUS QUO GO UNTIL NOW WE LITERALLY HAVE MORE WELLS BEING DRILLED.

IT IS A RACE TO THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE AQUIFER.

I AM TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITIES, COMMUNITIES THAT WILL HAVE NO DRINKING WATER IF WE DON’T CHANGE WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW.

IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE WE HAVE BIG PROBLEMS.

BUT THEY ARE MANAGEABLE, BUT AS LONG AS WE ARE NOT ATTEMPTING TO MANAGE THEM HOLISTICALLY, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE MANAGED, BECAUSE NO ONE ENTITY HAS THE FORMULA TO FIX THINGS.

INTERNATIONAL SCHOLARS WHO MET AT UNM IN JUNE CONCLUDED THAT WATER IS A COMMUNITY PROBLEM.

RESEARCH INTO PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS DON’T REACH THE PEOPLE.

THEY DON’T REACH THE LEGISLATURE.

A COMMUNITY PROBLEM LIKE WATER CAN ONLY BE SOLVED THROUGH — CAN ONLY BE ADDRESSED THROUGH COMMUNITY-DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT PLANNING IS ALL ABOUT IT IS COMING UP WITH COMMUNITY DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

AND THAT IS WHAT OUR NEW LAW PROVIDES FOR.

AND THE NEW SOLUTIONS CAN’T DEPEND JUST ON THE STATE OR JUST ON THE WATER AUTHORITY OR THE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT, BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY HAVE THEIR OWN MISSIONS AND MISSIONS ARE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PEOPLE, NOT TO TAKE CARE OF THE WATER SYSTEM AND THE WATER SUPPLY.

SO, THE PIECES DON’T ADD UP TO A WHOLE.

WHAT THE ACCESS IS WE HAVE TO COME TOGETHER, WE HAVE TO COLLABORATE AND WE HAVE TO FIND PROBLEMS — SORRY, SOLUTIONS TO OUR PROBLEMS AND TO ME IT DOESN’T DO ANY GOOD TO TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST GOING TO TURN PEOPLE OFF.

WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS WHAT THE WATER SECURITY PLANNING ACT TELL US TO DO, WHICH IS TO SELF ORGANIZE, A COLLABORATIVE EFFORT WHERE WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AND FIND AGREED SOLUTIONS TO OUR PROBLEMS AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY.

WE HAVE GOT TO GET STARTED.

>> Laura: THERE ARE THESE PROBLEMS STATE-WIDE AND ISSUES STATE-WIDE BUT JUST LOOKING AT THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE VALLEY, I AM CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK.

ARE WE LIVING WITHIN OUR WATER BUDGET?

UMM, YEAH.

ARE WE LIVING WITHIN OR WATER BUDGET?

>> Gaume: THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS NO.

THE TREND HAS BEEN REALLY NEGATIVE JUST DOWN, DOWN, DOWN FOR THE LAST DECADE.

BASICALLY A LOT OF OUR WATER WENT AWAY BUT OUR USES REMAIN THE SAME.

WHAT WE DID IS TRANSFERRED FROM THE RIVER, WHICH WE WERE BEGINNING TO DEPEND ON FOR DRINKING WATER IN ALBUQUERQUE, BACK TO GROUNDWATER, AND, GUESS WHAT, THE GROUNDWATER, REMEMBER IT WAS RISING?

IT HAS STARTED TO FALL AGAIN.

BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR SOLUTION.

WE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY HAVE OVER THE HALF THE STATE’S PEOPLE, WE HAVE HALF THE STATE’S ECONOMY, DIVERSIFIED ECONOMY, WE HAVE A THIN SLICE OF WATER TO SUPPORT ALL OF THAT.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MANAGE THAT THIN SLICE BY AGREEMENT SO IT MEETS OUR NEEDS.

IT MAY NOT MEET ALL OUR WANTS BUT THERE IS ENOUGH WATER TO MEET OUR NEEDS.

>> Laura: LOOKING BACK, YOU WERE THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR FROM 1997 TO 2002.

LOOKING BACK NOW, WHAT DO YOU WISH THAT MAYBE YOU HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY THEN?

>> Gaume: YOU KNOW, I HAVE CLOSE COLLEAGUES THAT I DEPEND A LOT ON THAT COUNCIL ME, THAT MY CONSTANT WISHING THE PAST SHOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IS REALLY NOT PRODUCTIVE.

IT REALLY DOESN’T CHANGE THINGS.

WHAT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON IS THE FUTURE.

WHAT DO I WISH I HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY?

WELL, WHEN I WAS APPOINTED INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR THE CRISIS OF THE MOMENT IN WATER WAS COMPLIANCE WITH THE PECOS RIVER COMPACT.

AND THROUGH A COLLABORATIVE PROCESS INVOLVING THE STAKEHOLDERS WE FOUND AN AGREED SOLUTION, WE NEGOTIATED, EVERYBODY AGREED, IT WAS PASSED INTO LAW BY THE LEGISLATURE IN THE VERY NEXT SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE AND YOU KNOW WHAT, COMPACT COMPLIANCE IN THE PECOS HAS NOT BEEN A PROBLEM SINCE.

AND IT WAS A CRISIS EVERY YEAR BEFORE THAT.

YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO 1987 WHEN WE WERE SERVED WITH A DECREE TO NEVER AGAIN OWE WATER TO TEXAS.

I SAID AT THE TIME THAT I AM HAPPY TO WORK ON THIS CRISIS BUT THE LOWER RIO GRANDE IS MORE IMPORTANT AND THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE IS MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL.

I DIDN’T HAVE THE BAND WIDTH OR TIME OR MY AGENCY DIDN’T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DEAL WITH THOSE ISSUES, THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION.

THEY HAVE MORE RESOURCES NOW BUT NOT ENOUGH.

SO, I WISH, IF ANYTHING, WHAT WE HAD DONE WAS TO SET THE STAGE FOR CONCENTRATED ATTENTION ON THE LOWER RIO GRANDE AND THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE.

WE PREPARED A PLAN.

SOME OF THAT GOT INTO THE PLAN BUT, GUESS WHAT, THE PLANS WERE NEVER FUNDED TO BE IMPLEMENTED.

NOW THE PECOS RIVER PLAN, THAT WAS A CRISIS.

IT WAS FULLY FUNDED BY THE STATE, IT WAS IMPLEMENTED, IT WAS A SUCCESS.

WE NEED TO REPLICATE THAT IN THE LOWER RIO GRANDE.

WE MOST ESPECIALLY NEED TO REPLICATE IT HERE IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE.

>> Laura: SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK ABOUT SOMETIMES, PEOPLE WHO WORK IN WATER IN NEW MEXICO OR PROBABLY ANYWHERE, WHETHER THEY ARE IN FEDERAL OR STATE AGENCIES, LIKE, THEY GENUINELY CARE ABOUT WATER.

THEY ARE NOT IN IT FOR ANY OTHER REASON EXCEPT THAT THEY CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORK IN WATER IN NEW MEXICO KNOW THAT OUR PROBLEMS ARE FAR BIGGER THAN WE PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE.

CERTAINLY THAT LEGISLATORS ACKNOWLEDGE.

I AM CURIOUS WHAT YOU MIGHT URGE THESE TYPES OF EMPLOYEES TO CONSIDER OR TO THINK ABOUT IN THEIR DAILY WORK AND IN THEIR WORK FOR THE STATE?

>> Gaume: THAT IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION, LAURA.

WHEN I ARRIVED AT THE ISC I WAS TOLD THAT WE SHOULDN’T BE TOO FRANK ABOUT PROBLEMS WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROBLEMS BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AN ADMISSION THAT WOULD BE USED AGAINST US.

SO, THE THEORY WAS TO EVEN TALK ABOUT A PROBLEM WAS AN ADMISSION.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE OF THE STATE ENGINEER THAT ARE IN CHARGE OF THESE BIG DATA SETS.

THEY CAN’T HELP WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE THEM DID, BUT THOSE DATA SETS ARE IN LOUSY CONDITION AND THEY NEED TO BE CLEANED UP.

PEOPLE NEED TO SAY THAT.

ONE OF THE KEYS ON THE PECOS RIVER TO OUR SOLUTION WAS SPEAKING WHAT WE CALLED THEN AND WHAT I CALL NOW, THE PLAIN TRUTHS.

YOU KNOW, THE PLAIN TRUTHS IN ALBUQUERQUE IN THE 1990’S WERE THE AQUIFER IS NOT WORKING THE WAY WE THINK IT SHOULD, WHAT IS GOING ON?

AND THEN LATER WE CAN’T PUMP THE GROUNDWATER AS OUR ONLY MEANS OF SERVICE SUPPLY BECAUSE THE RIVER WATER IS NOT MAKING INTO IT.

THAT IS THE PLAIN TRUTH.

THE PLAIN TRUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE IS WE ARE USING MORE WATER THAN WE ARE ENTITLED.

THE PLAIN TRUTH IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE IS THAT NOBODY IS PROTECTING THE VOLUME OF WATER THAT REMAINS IN THE AQUIFER.

THE AQUIFER IS NOT A PROTECTED WATER SUPPLY SOURCE IN THE STATE EXCEPT THROUGH PERMITS AND THINGS THAT ONLY PERIPHERALLY GET TO THE PROBLEM AND THOSE PERMITS ARE NEVER REVISITED.

SO WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR WAYS DRAMATICALLY.

AND THE ONLY WAY WE DO THAT IS TO TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS.

ADMISSION OR NOT, WE CAN’T SOLVE A PROBLEM UNLESS WE CAN NAME IT.

NAME THE PROBLEMS, TALK ABOUT THEM, SEEK SOLUTIONS.

>> Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

ON OUR WEBSITE, WE’LL HAVE RESOURCES AND INFORMATION ON HOW PEOPLE CAN BECOME INVOLVED IN WATER PLANNING.

THANK YOU.

>> Gaume: LAURA, YOU DO A REAL PUBLIC SERVICE IN NEW MEXICO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Laura: THANKS.

>> Neill: ESPECIALLY SINCE COVID, THE LIBRARY SORT OF FELL INTO THIS ROLE OF BEING A COMMUNITY CENTER, NOT THAT — WE ALWAYS KIND OF WERE, BUT WE WERE DOING COVID TESTS, WE WERE HELPING PEOPLE GET VACCINATIONS.

AND WE KIND OF SWITCHED OUR MODEL TO WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT WHAT COULD HELP THE PEOPLE OF SANTA FE THE MOST.

WHETHER THAT WAS ACCESS TO LIBRARY MATERIALS, INFORMATION OR, IN THIS CASE, PERIOD PRODUCTS, WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO ENSURE THAT EVERY PERSON IN SANTA FE HAS ACCESS TO WHAT THEY NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL, WHATEVER THAT LOOKS LIKE.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO LAURA AND FORMER NEW MEXICO INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR NORMAN GUAM.

AND LIKE LAURA SAID, YOU CAN FIND WATER RESOURCES ONLINE.

GO TO NMPBS.ORG, CLICK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS AND FIND THE OUR LAND PAGE.

FOUNDED AT THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY BLACKDOM WAS A FREEDOM COLONY IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO FORMED BY BLACK SETTLERS HOPING TO ESCAPE THE JIM CROW SOUTH.

THIS WEEK ON THE SHOW, NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS SITS DOWN WITH DR. TIMOTHY NELSON TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK BLACKDOM, NEW MEXICO, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE AFRO FRONTIER, WHICH EXPLAINS HOW THE COLONY’S GOALS GREW AND SHIFTED BETWEEN 1900 AND 1930.

BEFORE WE AIR THE INTERVIEW, A BRIEF DISCLAIMER, DR. NELSON USES A RACIAL SLUR WHILE RECOUNTING A HEADLINE IN A TEXAS NEWSPAPER ANNOUNCING THE CREATION OF BLACKDOM.

WE FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO SEE DR. NELSON’S FULLY DESCRIBING THE WAY BLACKDOM WAS RECEIVED AT THE TIME.

HERE IS RUSSELL.

>> Russell: DR. TIMOTHY NELSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Nelson: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Russell: CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW BOOK, BLACKDOM NEW MEXICO, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE AFRO FRONTIER 1900 TO 1930.

FIRST, BLACKDOM WAS A TOWN IN WHAT PEOPLE SAY THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE SETTLED BY BLACK PEOPLE.

WHAT WAS BLACKDOM AND WHO SETTLED THERE?

Nelson: FIRST WE HAVE TO START WITH BLACKDOM WAS A REAL PLACE.

BECAUSE MY BROTHER THOUGHT I MADE THAT UP BUT BLACKDOM WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, 1800’S NOTION OF PROMISED LAND AT FIRST.

AND THEN IT TRANSITIONED INTO AN INVESTMENT VEHICLE.

IT WAS ALWAYS AN INVESTMENT VEHICLE WHERE BLACK AMBITIONS ARE NURTURED AND CIRCULATED AMONG EACH OTHER.

SO IT WAS A PROMISE LAND BUT IT WAS ALSO A PLACE WHERE BLACK PEOPLE CAN LIVE OUT THEIR STRIVING.

>> Russell: WHO SETTLED THERE AND WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?

>> Nelson: SETTLING WAS A DIVERSITY OF PEOPLE.

FIRST, THERE WERE THE — THERE WAS THE POPULATION WHO WAS BORN UNDER THE INSTITUTIONS OF SLAVERY OUT OF THE SOUTH, TEXAS, MIDWEST.

AND THEN YOU HAD A FEW COHORTS COME THROUGH.

SOME WERE THE ULTRA LITERATE BLACK FOLKS WHO WERE TRAVELING FROM NEW YORK TO CALIFORNIA AND STOPPED IN BLACKDOM BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HEARD ABOUT IT IN THE CRISIS MAGAZINE OR THE BACK PRESS.

YOU HAD A LOT OF WOMEN, INCLUDING WOMEN WHO WERE ON THE HOMESTEADS THEMSELVES, AS WELL.

SO, THERE WAS A DIVERSE POPULATION OF BLACK FOLKS.

>> Russell: IN THE EARLY 1900’S, WE’RE JUST ONE GENERATION REMOVED FROM ENSLAVEMENT AND AT THIS TIME BLACK PEOPLE HAD SOME OPTIONS TO MIGRATE TO VARIOUS PLACES.

WHY DID SOME CHOOSE BLACKDOM?

>> Nelson: MOSTLY BECAUSE IT WAS A TERRITORY.

SO, IN A TERRITORY THE NORMAL JIM CROW LAWS DON’T NECESSARILY APPLY IN THE SAME WAY.

SO, CROSSING OVER FROM TEXAS, FOR EXAMPLE, INTO NEW MEXICO WAS GENERALLY CONSIDERED JIM CROW FREE BUT IN THE LOCAL FOLKLORE OR AGREEMENTS, GENTLEMEN AGREEMENTS, THE PECOS RIVER WAS THE END OF THE JIM CROW LINE.

I CAN GO THROUGH THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER TOO, BUT SO BLACKDOM IS LOCATED FIVE MILES WEST OF THE PECOS AND SO IT IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU END UP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT JUST BLACK, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT PEOPLE WHO CANNOT CLAIM WHITE.

>> Russell: WHERE WAS IT LOCATED IN TERMS OF MODERN DAY TOWNS?

>> Nelson: OKAY.

WE’LL TALK ABOUT MODERN DAY.

DEXTER, NEW MEXICO, IS DIRECTLY EAST.

FIVE MILES NORTH YOU HAVE — 20 MILES NORTH IS ROSWELL.

20 MILES SOUTH IS ARTESIA, 80 MILES, 60 MILES IS CARLSBAD.

BASICALLY THAT 285 LINE FROM ROSWELL INTO CARLSBAD.

>> Russell: YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOK THAT THIS WAS THE COMING TOGETHER OF BLACK AMERICANS FROM OTHER CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER ENCOUNTER OF BLACK PEOPLE FROM LATIN AMERICA OR A PLACE THAT WAS USED TO BE PART OF MEXICO.

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE AND HOW DID THEY FORM BLACKDOM?

>> Nelson: IT IS — HOW MUCH TIME DO WE HAVE?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BLACKDOM, I CONTEXTUALIZE IT AS MEXICO’S NORTHERN FRONTIER.

WHAT YOU END UP WITH ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BLACK INDIGENOUS, BLACK MEXICANOS.

IT IS JUST AN INTERSECTION OF BLACKNESS HAPPENING IN BLACKDOM INCLUDING SOME IRISH IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE ALSO INTEGRATED INTO THE FAMILY.

WHAT DIRECTLY DO YOU WANT ME TO ANSWER ABOUT THE POPULATION?

>> Russell: WHEN THEY CAME TOGETHER WAS THEIR AN ENCOUNTER OF SOME SORT?

DID THEY SEE EACH OTHER AS ONE OR WERE THERE CULTURAL DIFFERENCES?

>> Nelson: GENERALLY THEY CAME TOGETHER BECAUSE OF THEIR CONSCIOUSNESS.

ONE OF THE THINGS WAS CHURCH WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND THEN YOU HAD A MILITARY BACKGROUND.

SO IF YOU HAVE THIS IN YOUR BACKGROUND OR IN YOUR FAMILY, IT ENDS UP BEING PART OF HOW WE BEGIN COMMUNING AND THEN YOU HAVE THE BLACK FREE NATION.

WITHIN THOSE INSTITUTIONS YOU HAVE A LOT OF COMMUNITY HELP, APPRENTICESHIPS WHERE PEOPLE COME IN AND IT IS THEIR FIRST TIME AND THEY WANT TO LEARN HOW TO FARM, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO IT IS A COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NURTURING THE DIFFERENT IDENTITIES THAT ARE GOING ON THERE AND IT’S MOSTLY AROUND THE CONSCIOUSNESS THEY MAINTAIN.

>> Russell: YOU MENTIONED LACK OF JIM CROW LAWS, DE FACTO, BUT THERE IS ALSO A LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE, LACK OF WATER.

WHAT WAS LIFE LIKE IN BLACKDOM WHEN IT FIRST STARTED?

>> Nelson: A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE TALK ABOUT DROUGHTS BECAUSE THAT IS THE COMMON FOLKLORE ABOUT BLACKDOM.

I JUST WENT THERE LAST WEEK AND THERE IS WATER THERE NOW.

SO, LET’S SAY 100 YEARS AGO THERE WERE DROUGHTS.

THERE WERE OTHER WAYS TO MAINTAIN YOUR HOMESTEAD BESIDES SIMPLY FARMING, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU CAN INVEST IN A DESERT HOMESTEAD BY GOING INTO ROSWELL OR ARTESIA AND WORKING AS A MAID, A COOK, OR PORTER.

WELL YOU APPEAR IN THOSE SPACES AS THE HELP BUT WHEN YOU COME BACK TO BLACKDOM, YOU’RE THE LANDOWNER, YOU’RE THE PEACE OFFICER, YOU’RE THE COURT.

SO, YEAH, THE FARMING DID WORK.

BY STATEHOOD, 1912 YOU HAD THE NEGRO THANKSGIVING, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND IT WAS THIS BIG BANQUET WHERE YOU HAD A TOASTMASTER WHO WAS FRANK BOYER AND ALL THE FOOD WAS PROVIDED BY BLACKDOM FARMS.

SO, THEY WERE ABLE TO PROVIDE EVERYONE WITH A REGENERATIVE AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY, BUT, EVERYONE WEREN’T ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THAT.

>> Russell: THIS WAS IN MANY WAYS CRAFTED AS BLACK UTOPIA.

THERE WAS A CHURCH.

THERE WERE BUSINESSES, GENERAL STORES AND ALL THAT.

WHAT WERE THEY SEEKING IN CREATING BLACK UTOPIA?

WHAT WAS ON THEIR MIND?

>> Nelson: AGAIN, THE DIVERSITY AMONG THEM WAS THIS NOTION OF FRONTIER SOVEREIGNTY.

THE PROBLEM WITH SOVEREIGNTY IS EVERYONE GETS TO DECIDE HOW THEY ARE GOING TO LIVE OUT THAT PARTICULAR SOVEREIGNTY.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, I’LL GIVE AN EXAMPLE, AS THEY STARTED, IT WAS A REGENERATIVE AGRICULTURAL SOCIETY, SO, BUILT AROUND CHURCH AND GOD AND SEED TIME AND HARVEST.

BUT ONCE OIL WAS FOUND IN NEW MEXICO ABOUT 1909ISH, COMMERCIAL WELLS AROUND 1922, BLACKDOM STARTED SEEING THEIR LAND OR THEIR SPACE AS A PLACE OF EXTRACTION.

SO THAT KIND OF CHANGED WHAT THEIR MOTIVATIONS WERE AMONG THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

AS THEY GATHERED THEIR THOUGHTS, THEY MAINTAINED THE LAND BUT THE IDEA OF LIVING AS A TOWNSHIP OR WITH THE RELATIONSHIPS, THAT CHANGED OVER TIME.

THAT IS NOT EXACTLY A DIRECT ANSWER BUT IT EBBED AND FLOWED DEPENDING WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE.

>> Russell: WE KNOW WHEN BLACK PEOPLE MOVE INTO NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY ATTRACT ATTENTION.

>> Nelson: A LITTLE BIT.

>> Russell: AND WHEN THEY MOVE INTO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE THEY CAN ALSO ATTRACT ATTENTION LIKE WITH BLACKDOM.

WHAT WAS THE REACTION OF SURROUNDING TOWNS TO BLACK SETTLERS COMING FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY TO THIS ONE SPOT IN NEW MEXICO?

HOW DID THEY REACT?

>> Nelson: BRYAN, TEXAS, AN ARTICLE I’LL NEVER FORGET, NEW MEXICO TO HAVE NIGGER TOWN.

THAT WAS THE RECEPTION, HOWEVER, BUT THAT WAS BRYAN, TEXAS.

SO, THAT AD WENT FOR THAT POPULATION AND THAT MUNICIPALITY BUT WHEN YOU CROSS OVER THE PECOS, YOU CAN HAVE ALL THOSE THOUGHTS YOU WANT, IT IS A SOUTHERN OASIS IN ROSWELL AND ARTESIA.

HOWEVER THE GENTLEMAN RULES APPLY.

SO, FOR THE MOST PART IN BLACKDOM THEY WERE ABLE TO GENERATE GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

THE PROBLEM CAME WHEN THEY WERE IN THE CITIES LIKE IN ROSWELL, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN BLACKDOM CHILDREN, WHEN THEY MOSTLY MIGRATED OUT OF BLACKDOM AND INTO ROSWELL, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY WENT TO THE HIGH SCHOOL AND WERE NOT ABLE TO GET THEIR DIPLOMAS EVEN THOUGH THEY COMPLETED ALL THEIR CREDITS, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO THAT IS WHERE THE PRESSURE KIND OF BUILT UP, BECAUSE PART OF BLACKDOM WAS TO HAVE A RANCH IN BLACKDOM BUT ALSO MAINTAIN YOURSELF IN THE CITY.

>> Russell: SOME OF THE FORMERLY ENSLAVED PEOPLE OR ENSLAVED PEOPLE MOVED TO BLACKDOM.

DID SOME OF THE FORMER CONFEDERATES MOVE TO SURROUNDING TOWNS?

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> Nelson: OH, YEAH.

THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY SOUTHERN OASIS.

PART OF THE HOMESTEAD SITUATION WAS YOU WEREN’T ALLOWED TO OWN HOMESTEAD LAND IF YOU HAD TAKEN UP ARMS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

SO, THERE WERE OTHER WAYS THAT CONFEDERATES WERE ABLE TO GET LAND.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE TRAINS CAME IN.

WELL, THE TRAINS COME IN, THEY GET ALL KINDS — THEY GET LAND IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT WAYS AND SOME ARE MORE NEFARIOUS THAN OTHERS.

SO CONFEDERATES WERE ABLE TO GET LAND FROM BY BUYING AND SELLING IT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAD ORIGINALLY HOMESTEADED.

I BELIEVE HAGERMAN WAS ONE OF THE ONES WHO DONATED 40 ACRES IN ORDER FOR THE GOSS INSTITUTE, WHICH WAS NAMED FOR A CONFEDERATE, AT FIRST, BEFORE IT BECAME NMMI.

THAT WAS A PART OF HOW THEY GOT LAND.

TRADING LAND FROM ONE TO ANOTHER OR I THINK IT IS CALLED THIRD PARTY PURCHASING, IS HOW THAT WAS.

SO, WHEN THEY GATHERED THAT, THEY CREATED THAT SOUTHERN OASIS, AND BLACK PEOPLE A LOT OF TIMES USED IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE I SAID, THEY WOULD GO IN AND THERE WOULD BE MAIDS FOR PEOPLE FROM KENTUCKY WHO ARE CONFEDERATE LEANING BUT THEY WOULD GO AHEAD AND HAVE THEIR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS AND SPACE TO DEAL WITH BLACK PEOPLE IN BLACKDOM.

>> Russell: ULTIMATELY WHY DID PEOPLE LEAVE BLACKDOM BY 1930?

>> Nelson: BY 1929, THERE WAS A BUST FOR EVERYBODY IN BLACKDOM SO THE LEAVING — OKAY — THE LEAVING WAS GRADUAL BECAUSE THE LAND WAS STILL THERE.

THERE WAS NEVER A POINT WHERE THEY JUST SIMPLY SOLD OFF THEIR LAND AND LEFT.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY LEASING THE LAND BY 1919, AND AFTER 1919, THE LAND MASS GREW EXPONENTIALLY, THEY WERE ALREADY LEASING IT AND LIVING IN ROSWELL, ALBUQUERQUE, TUCSON, DETROIT, YOU KNOW, ATLANTA, WHEREVER THEY MOVED TO, THEY WERE STILL ABLE TO RECEIVE THEIR ROYALTIES.

SO, 1929 WAS WHEN IT WAS OR 30 WAS ABOUT THE TIME IT WAS DEPOPULATED BUT THE LAND WAS STILL IMPORTANT TO THE COMMUNITY AS PART OF, YOU KNOW, CONTINUING EXTRACTION, BECAUSE THEY GOT OIL ROYALTIES INTO THE POST WORLD WAR II ERA.

A LOT OF PEOPLE CONTINUED THE EXTRACTION EVEN AFTER, SO, ABOUT 1929.

>> Russell: IN OUR FINAL 60 SECONDS WE HAVE, WHY IS BLACKDOM IMPORTANT TODAY WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AND DISSECT IT?

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT WE LOOK AT THIS TOWN IN THIS MOMENT OF HISTORY?

>> Nelson: IT SHOWS INTENTIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE.

SPECIFICALLY IN THE 20TH CENTURY THERE WAS THIS WHOLE POINT OF TRYING TO PROVE THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE HUMAN.

THIS HELPS US TO EASILY LOOK BACK AND SEE HOW HUMAN THEY WERE AND IT WASN’T JUST ABOUT SURVIVING OUT IN THE DESERT.

IT WAS ABOUT THRIVING, FINDING A PLACE OF OPPORTUNITY AND AMBITION AND LOOKING AT THESE BLACK FOLKS AS WHOLE HUMAN BEINGS AND THAT IS WHAT THIS BOOK DOES.

IT HELPS YOU TO SEE THROUGHOUT TIME A DEVELOPED AND NURTURED CONSCIOUSNESS INTELLECTUALLY.

>> Russell: THE BOOK IS TITLED BLACKDOM, NEW MEXICO, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE AFRO FRONTIER, 1900 TO 1930.

DR. NELSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

>> Nelson: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO DR. TIMOTHY NELSON FOR SPEAKING TO US ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK.

ONE IN FOUR NEW MEXICO TEENS HAVE MISSED SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T GET PERIOD PRODUCTS.

THAT IS JUST ONE OF SEVERAL STATISTICS THE NONPROFIT FREE FLOW NEW MEXICO IS WORKING TO REVERSE BY EXPANDING ACCESS TO MENSTRUAL HYGIENE FOR PEOPLE IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE STATE.

THE ORGANIZATION GOT ITS START THREE YEARS AGO BY DISTRIBUTING MENSTRUAL MATERIALS AND NOW HAS THREE SELF-SERVE KIOSKS IN SANTA FE WHERE PEOPLE CAN PICK UP A BAG FILLED WITH EVERYTHING THEY MIGHT NEED.

THOSE KIOSKS ARE BETTER KNOWN AS PERIOD PODS.

EACH ONE HAS FREE PRODUCTS AVAILABLE 24 HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT ANTONIO GONZALES RECENTLY SPOKE WITH THE DIRECTOR OF FREE FLOW NEW MEXICO AND THREE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VITAL IN GETTING ONE LOCATION UP AND RUNNING AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY BRANCH IN SANTA FE’S SOUTH SIDE.

>> Merrill: WHAT THESE ARE, THEY ARE LIKE THE LITTLE LIBRARIES THAT YOU SEE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOODS BUT INSTEAD OF GRABBING A BOOK, YOU’RE GRABBING A BAG OF PERIOD PRODUCTS.

EACH POD HOLDS 300 BAGS PER MONTH, EACH ONE IS FUNDED BY A DIFFERENT FABULOUS FOUNDATION OR COMMUNITY ORGANIZATION AND THEY ARE ALSO POD TENDED .

>> Antonia: WHAT COMES IN THE POD, LIKE, WHEN SOMEONE COMES AND THEY TAKE A BAG, WHAT IS IN THE BAG?

>> Merrill: EACH BAG IS FILLED WITH A ONE-MONTH SUPPLY OF PERIOD PRODUCTS OF PADS, TAMPONS, LINERS.

AND THERE IS ALSO AN OFFER IN EACH BAG WHICH ALLOWS THE RECIPIENT TO RECEIVE EITHER A PERIOD CUP, PERIOD UNDERWEAR AND SO THAT IT IS A REUSABLE ITEM.

>> Antonia: WHEN IT COMES TO THE PERIOD PODS, HAVE YOU HAD ANY FEEDBACK?

>> Merrill: WE HAVE BEEN RECEIVING AMAZING FEEDBACK FROM THE PERIOD PODS.

INDIVIDUALS ARE SO EXCITED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE 24-HOUR ACCESSIBILITY TO PERIOD PRODUCTS.

BECAUSE, YOUR PERIODS DO NOT WAIT FOR A 9:00 A.M.

OPENING.

>> Antonia: WHAT HAS BEEN THE RESPONSE FOR THESE TO BE HERE AT THE LIBRARY?

>> Neill: VERY, VERY POSITIVE.

I THINK IT IS REALLY RAISING AWARENESS.

PEOPLE DIDN’T REALLY THINK ABOUT BEFORE HOW INACCESSIBLE THESE CAN BE SOMETIMES.

AND HOW OFTEN PEOPLE ARE HAVING TO MAKE THAT CHOICE.

I THINK A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE THINK OF THAT AS A PROBLEM THAT HAPPENS IN OTHER COUNTRIES AND THEY DON’T REALIZE IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS HERE IN THE U.S. EVERY COMMUNITY.

>> Merrill: EACH POD IS DESIGNED BY LOCAL ARTISTS FROM THAT COMMUNITY.

YOU’LL GET TO SEE THEIR BEAUTIFUL WORK AND WHAT INSPIRES THEM AND WHAT HAS INFLUENCED THEM.

>> Antonia: WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE YOU FOUND ARTISTS FROM THE COMMUNITY TO CONTRIBUTE.

Merrill: IT IS IMPORTANT TO FIND AN ARTIST WITHIN EACH COMMUNITY.

>> Fernandez: MY NAME IS SELENA FERNANDEZ.

I AM FROM SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO AND I AM AN ARTIST.

>> Merrill: FOR EACH COMMUNITY TO ASSIST ITSELF.

>> Haros: MY NAME IS ISRAEL HAROS.

CHICANO POET, MURALIST.

>> Merrill: WE HAVE POD TENDERS AND WHAT THOSE POD TENDERS ARE ARE INDIVIDUALS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY THAT THE POD IS LOCATED IN AND THEY ARE PUTTING TOGETHER THE BAGS FOR THEIR PERIOD POD.

AND THEY ARE MANAGING IT AND THE ARTISTS ARE PUTTING IT IN AND SO WE ARE LOOKING FOR EACH COMMUNITY TO BUILD ITSELF UP AND TO GIVE WITHIN ITSELF.

>> Haros: IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US AS MEN TO UNDERSTAND THAT CYCLE AND IT IS PART OF A MOON CYCLE, PART OF 28-DAY CYCLE, PART OF NATURE, SO IN THIS BOX I WAS PUTTING ALL THE DIFFERENT PRAYERS THAT I HAVE THIS MUCH UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE, AGAIN, THAT IS NOT BIOLOGICALLY HAPPENING IN MY BODY BUT IT IS ALSO PART OF RECOGNITION.

WE ALL COME FROM OUR MOTHERS, WE ALL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THOSE THINGS.

>> Fernandez: HE CAME IN WITH HIS MASCULINITY, I CAME IN WITH MY FEMININITY AND THAT ITSELF WAS A LESSON TO BE TALKED ABOUT AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEN LIKE OLDER PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE THAT, YEAH, THESE THINGS ARE SO CORRELATED THAT WE DO NEED THOSE TWO ENERGIES TO KEEP THIS BALANCE.

I STARTED DOING A COUPLE OF STUFF WHICH IS MY STYLE AND YOU SEE THAT HERE AND I WAS TRYING TO CENTER THE VOICE OF MY COMMUNITY, MY MEXICAN COMMUNITY, AND JUST BRING IN THOSE REMEDIOS AND REMEDY WITHIN MY ART AND REMEDIES THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED ON THROUGH MY COMMUNITIES, UNTIL IT GOT TO ME AND PUT THEM IN THIS BOX.

WE HAVE HERE A GODDESS AND IT IS LIKE MOTHER EARTH AND THEN WE HAVE SOME FLOWER AND ON THE BOTTOM I CREATED MY OWN CHAMOMILE AND FROM THERE ON THE BOTTOM YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF OTHER HERBS LIKE SALVIA, VALIA AND RUGA WHICH ARE ALL MEXICAN HERBS THAT GROW IN MEXICO AND THAT MY FAMILY HAS USED, GENERATIONS OF THEIR FAMILY HAVE USED AND PEOPLE IN MEXICO CONTINUE TO USE.

SO, THAT IS WHAT I DID AND I CENTERED THAT VOICE.

>> Haros: AND IN CONTEMPORARY TIMES, SOMETIMES WE VIEW THE PERIOD AND HAVE REALLY NEGATIVE CONNOTATIONS TO WHAT IT IS OR ISN’T.

AND RECOGNIZE THAT IT BRINGS LIFE.

IRREGARDLESS IF A WOMAN DECIDES TO BRING LIFE INTO THIS EARTH, THAT IS PART OF THAT LIFE DRIVING CREATOR CYCLE SO THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS THAT ARE IN HERE, ARE ABOUT CREATION.

SO, ON THE TOP IS THE SACRED WOMAN DESIGN GOING BACK TO OUR ANCESTRAL VISION AND ON THE OTHER SIDE HAS DIFFERENT HISTORICAL AND ANCESTRAL FIGURES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE MOON, WITH THE FEMININE, WITH THE SERPENT ENERGY, WITH DIFFERENT ENERGIES, THAT, AGAIN, ARE PART OF THAT FEMININE CYCLE.

I AM REALLY GRATEFUL THAT THEY ARE AT THE LIBRARY BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS, NOT JUST WITH THIS AND OTHER RESOURCES THAT OUR SOUTH SIDE FAMILIES NEED TO HAVE FOR FREE.

YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE NICE THAT WE HAVE ALL THESE OTHER DIFFERENT TYPES OF RESOURCES, THAT ARE NECESSITIES THAT OUR COMMUNITY JUST NEEDS TO HAVE.

>> Antonia: WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING IT AT TWO LIBRARIES, BECAUSE THE LIBRARY IS SOMEWHERE WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING, IT IS A PLACE WHERE THE COMMUNITY GOES.

>> Neill: ESPECIALLY SINCE COVID.

THE LIBRARY SORT OF FELL INTO THIS ROLE OF BEING A COMMUNITY CENTER, NOT THAT — WE ALWAYS KIND OF WERE, BUT WE WERE DOING COVID TESTS.

WE WERE HELPING PEOPLE GET VACCINATIONS AND WE KIND OF SWITCHED OUR MODEL TO WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT WHAT COULD HELP THE PEOPLE OF SANTA FE THE MOST, SO WHETHER THAT WAS ACCESS TO LIBRARY MATERIALS, INFORMATION OR, IN THIS CASE, PERIOD PRODUCTS.

WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO ENSURE THAT EVERY PERSON IN SANTA FE HAS ACCESS TO WHAT THEY NEED TO BE SUCCESSFUL, WHATEVER THAT LOOKS LIKE.

>> Antonia: WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR MORE PARTNERSHIPS OR ANYTHING THAT YOU HOPE THAT THIS — BETWEEN THE LIBRARIES AND FREE FLOW NEW MEXICO?

>> Neill: WE WOULD LOVE TO ADD ONE TO THE MAIN LIBRARY DOWNTOWN AND ANYTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO HELP RAISE AWARENESS FOR THIS ISSUE, WHETHER IT IS BEING PART OF OUR CAMPAIGN OR BEING JUST BEING MORE VOCAL AND POSTING ABOUT IT OURSELVES AND JUST LETTING PEOPLE KNOW IT IS AN ISSUE AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> Merrill: ONE OUT OF FOUR LOW INCOME MENSTRUATORS REPORT MISSING WORK, SCHOOL AND OTHER ACTIVITIES.

PERIOD PRODUCTS ARE A BASIC NECESSITY AND WHEN WE SUPPLY INDIVIDUALS WITH THEIR BASIC NECESSITY, THEY ARE ABLE TO THRIVE.

WE LITERALLY HAVE STUDENTS WHO HAVE DROPPED OUT OR HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL BECAUSE OF TRUANCY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH PERIOD PRODUCTS TO SUPPLY FOR THEIR WHOLE CYCLE AND THEY END UP MISSING ANYWHERE FROM TWO TO FOUR DAYS OF SCHOOL PER MONTH AND THOSE BUILD.

>> Antonia: WHAT IS YOUR HOPE?

I KNOW YOU SAID YOU HAVE A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT COMING UP BUT WHAT IS YOUR HOPE FOR ENDING PERIOD POVERTY OR AT LEAST ADDRESSING IT THE WAY THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION IS?

>> Merrill: FREE FLOW NEW MEXICO WOULD LOVE TO SEE EVERY INDIVIDUAL BE ABLE TO STRIVE TO THEIR PERSONAL SUCCESS AND HAVING THEIR BASIC NECESSITIES TAKEN CARE OF IS A WAY OF DOING THAT, FOOD, SHELTER AND PERIOD PRODUCTS ARE ALL BUNDLED IN TOGETHER.

>> Haros: WAIT.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO ANTONIA, OUR CREW AND LAURIE, MARGARET, IZZY AND SELINA.

WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE PERIOD PODS AND WHERE THEY ARE LOCATED UNDER THIS STORY ON NMPBS.ORG.

FINALLY TONIGHT A FEDERAL INDICTMENT ACCUSES FORMER BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF MANNY GONZALES AND FORMER LAGUNA PUEBLO POLICE CHIEF RUDY MORA OF ASSISTING IN AN ILLEGAL GUN DISTRIBUTION SCHEME.

GONZALES AND MORA HAVEN’T BEEN CHARGED BUT ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT FILED IN MARYLAND THEY SIGNED DOCUMENTS AUTHORIZING THE PURCHASE OF MORE THAN 1000 FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, THAT THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES CLASSIFIED AS MACHINE GUNS.

GONZALES AND MORA, WHO WORKED UNDER HIM AS BERNALILLO COUNTY UNDERSHERIFF, CLAIMED THE GUNS WOULD BE USED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT DEMONSTRATIONS, BUT FEDERAL AUTHORITIES SAY THAT WAS NEVER THEIR INTENTION.

INSTEAD THE TWO LAWMEN SIGNED PAPERWORK THAT ALLOWED ALBUQUERQUE GUN STORE OWNER, JAMES TAFOYA, TO BUY AND SELL THOSE GUNS, ALLEGEDLY IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW.

ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT, GONZALES REQUESTED 598 GUNS FROM 2015 TO 2020 AND MORA REQUESTED 414 GUNS FROM 2020 TO 2021.

TAFOYA IS FACING CHARGES ALLEGING HE ILLEGALLY IMPORTED GUNS AND MADE FALSE STATEMENTS.

HE HAS ALREADY APPEARED IN A BALTIMORE COURT WHERE A FEDERAL JUDGE RELEASED HIM PENDING TRIAL.

NORTH CAROLINA POLICE CHIEF, A NORTH DAKOTA POLICE CHIEF, A FLORIDA GUN DEALER AND A NORTH CAROLINA YOUTUBER ARE ALSO CHARGED IN THE CASE.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, WE’LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.