Entertainment
Matt Rife is living his comedy dream. Now for the hard part — maintaining it
Comedian Matt Rife sits for a portrait at the Kookaburra Lounge.
(Dania Maxwell / Los Angeles Times)
Shortly after becoming the youngest stand-up comedian in history to sell out the Hollywood Bowl during the second installment of Netflix is a Joke in May, Matt Rife’s tireless pursuit of success finally caught up to him. His performance schedule clocking 40 to 50 shows a month led to a stretch of consecutive days without sleep as he stayed up prepping for shows, editing social videos and barreling from city to city. Though his body and mind were getting shaky on tour, he fought through it. Finally, just before a recent pair of shows in Indiana, he said he almost collapsed while leaving his hotel room and was forced to cancel the gigs just hours before showtime. Suffering blurred vision and painful ringing in his ears, he could barely walk or talk and had to be taken to the emergency room.
“I felt like I was legitimately dying,” Rife said during an interview at the Kookaburra Lounge in Hollywood. “It’s embarrassing, man, because everybody around me saw this coming.” His piercing blue eyes cast down briefly at the floor as he thought about the moment he almost pushed himself past his limits. “Everybody’s only response was, ‘Can’t believe this didn’t happen sooner.’”
Since that episode, Rife said he’s spent considerable time finding a balance that allows him to sleep and to pursue his dreams. His latest project, “Lucid: A Crowd Work Special,” premiering Tuesday on Netflix, is a new hour where he interacts directly with his fans, talking to them about their own dreams, fears and future aspirations. Though the goal of course is laughter, Rife said the special is about finding ways to relate to his fans through dialogue in a real, meaningful way and also remind himself to appreciate his own success.
“The concept of dreams in general was just something that was so special to me, because I am so lucky that I get to finally live my biggest dream, being this moment that I’m having right now,” he said. “And I know so many other people strive for that, not necessarily in comedy specifically, but everybody has something that they’re chasing.”
During the special he singles out members of the audience to talk about where they were in chasing their dream gigs or analyzing their goals— and yes, crack jokes and roast them a bit for our enjoyment. Though this isn’t his first crowd-work special (see 2023’s “Walking Red Flag”), it’s a definite budget upgrade from a single camera set-up. The new Netflix production shows Rife at the peak of his powers, sparking spontaneous humor out of the fans who packed into the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, N.C.
Rife is known for crowd work, and he thinks he does it at a higher level. “It’s something that’s just fun and exciting for me,” he said. “These are moments that are never going to be duplicated at any other show I ever do. … When you’re rehearsing your set, building the material on a show for an hourlong, material special, you can definitely get tired of telling your own jokes.”
For a comic who once struggled to sell tickets for weeknight shows at big-city comedy clubs, the rush of fame over the last couple of years feels surreal. “When I started doing comedy this was never even a dream of mine to be at this level. I was just like, if I could ever sell out a comedy club one time ever, that’s the epitome of what I think a comedian probably could be,” he said.
Humility aside, there’s no shortage of both love and hate on the internet for Rife. Since going viral on TikTok in 2022, he’s has become a fixture in pop culture, frequently making headlines for whom he’s dating, what house he’s buying or whatever backlash he’s stirred up for jokes that strike some as sexist and misogynistic. But negative feedback hasn’t had much of an effect on his tour numbers. To date, he and Taylor Swift are the only two artists who command enough of a feeding frenzy to break Ticketmaster when announcing a tour. The argument over whether his fame is a result of his movie-star looks or his talent is well worn at this point, yet few seem to factor in the breakneck pace at which Rife and his team operate to keep his momentum going.
Fellow comedian Erik Griffin, who directed “Lucid” as well as Rife’s previous specials including 2023’s “Matthew Steven Rife” and his Netflix debut, “Natural Selection,” has worked with the young star since Rife was just a teen who was hitting Griffin up online looking for a chance to open for the veteran comic onstage. “What I admire about him is his work ethic,” Griffin said. “Nothing was handed to him. He’s been working hard for 12 years now, the fan base has just caught up with it, and they’ve made him super famous.”
Comedian Matt Rife.
(Dania Maxwell / Los Angeles Times)
Rife started in comedy at age 15, having become obsessed when his grandma took him to a Dane Cook show. Too young to drive himself to clubs, Rife had his grandpa take him from North Lewisburg, Ohio, to open mics as well as “bringer shows,” a rite of passage in which comics have to sell a certain number of tickets to get onstage. None of Rife’s friends were old enough to get inside a comedy club, so his grandpa would buy tickets. For Rife, the excitement of performing was initially eclipsed by fear.
The first time Rife went onstage for an open mic, he said, he almost soiled his pants. “I had all my jokes memorized but I was so nervous. And the host goes onstage. ‘We have a first timer tonight, give it up for the uncomfortably young Matt Reef,’” Rife recalled, adding that he was so nervous he thought his bowels were “gonna drop out of my body.” It was then that Rife recognized the feeling of stage fright for the first time. It excited him as much as it scared him, he said.
The pursuit of a career in comedy led him to leave Ohio and hit the road by age 17, and he settled in L.A. to pursue acting while still crisscrossing the country for gigs. During a decade of grinding, he put his looks, quick wit and work ethic to use, landing stints as a co-host of MTV’s short-lived “TRL” reboot and as a cast member of the sketch show “Wild ’N Out.” He also popped up on an episode of “Brooklyn Nine-Nine.” In 2017 his name surfaced in People magazine when he was briefly romantically linked to Kate Beckinsale.
He amassed millions of views on TikTok sketch and crowd work videos along with more than 30 million views for his three YouTube specials prior to “Natural Selection” last year. The comedian’s ability to build a relationship with a largely female fan base stems from his crowd work skills.
“He draws people in because he listens,” Griffin said. “So when he’s doing this crowd work with people, he’s genuinely interested in what people are saying. Those are the type of clips that have gotten that have gone viral for him, and those are the things that resonate with people. It’s not just crowd work for the sake of crowd work.”
(Dania Maxwell / Los Angeles Times)
Usually Rife is able to turn awkward or strange interactions into comedy gold. It’s much harder when an audience member tries too hard to be funny. “Don’t do that,” he says bluntly. “Just be yourself. I’ll bring the comedy out of you. Don’t worry. We’ll find it, you know, we’re Jordan and Pippin in this. Don’t be selfish.”
Though it’s always been Rife’s dream to entertain at the highest level, building that fame in the TikTok era has come with internet criticism. Whether people don’t like his looks or his humor or just want to elicit a response in the comments of social media, Rife is used to being a target for backlash, though he said he’s gotten better at ignoring it. It’s no coincidence that his two favorite comedians are Dave Chappelle and Ricky Gervais, two of the most popular and criticized comedians to hold a microphone.
“It’s a lot to juggle,” he said. “In the beginning, you really mostly only hear the positive … and then a very select group of people go, ‘Oh, this person’s very well loved and respected, and I myself might lack that love and respect in my own personal life, so therefore I don’t want this person to have it.’ So then comes the influx of negativity. You just have to really appreciate the good, because the bad is going to come with it, guaranteed. Nobody is universally loved.”
Through friends and therapy, he’s learned not to give negativity any oxygen in his world.
“I used to avidly respond back to people. Nobody could be meaner than me if I really wanted to be,” he said. “But you can’t do that, because whether or not you feel like you won that interaction or you had the better roast, what this troll or hater said to you doesn’t matter. You gave them exactly what they want. All they want is attention.”
While the topic of fighting for a dream is the focus of Rife’s newest special, the act of sharing his journey is at the heart of his next creative output, the book “Your Mom’s Gonna Love Me,” slated for December. Rife talks about becoming a comedy heartthrob before age 30, navigating his sex appeal in the public eye, battling depression and enduring failure before finally hitting it big.
Part of recapturing the dream is also talking about the people in his life who helped him achieve it, including close friends, early mentors and his grandpa — his first advocate in comedy — who died in November 2022, just before his career really began to take off. “He never got to see me have any of this, and he’s the reason I have any of this,” Rife said. “I’ve been so happy to be so distracted and keep busy and keep my mind off that kind of stuff. But through therapy and this book, which has been a massive form of therapy, it’s forced me to take time and reflect on all the things that got me to this point right now.”
After taking enough time to process his past, Rife’s new focus is on keeping his dream alive.
“That’s the new anxiety, by the way,” he said. “Because that’s the hardest thing. How many viral sensations are there a year? 30? Anybody can have a hot year, a hot moment of their career. So many musicians, actors, comedians have them quite often. Hard part is maintaining.”
Entertainment
Tom Sandoval’s girlfriend Victoria Robinson arrested after patio fire pit altercation
Tom Sandoval’s girlfriend Victoria Lee Robinson was arrested after the two had an altercation that involved her father being pushed into a lit fire pit.
Sandoval, known for the cheating “Scandoval” that erupted on the reality television series “Vanderpump Rules,” filed a restraining order against the model and her father J. Will Robinson (who goes by Will) over a June 3 incident that was partially caught on video. He was granted a temporary restraining order and a subsequent hearing was set for July 16.
According to court documents obtained by The Times, the altercation involving Sandoval, Victoria Robinson and J. Will Robinson happened in the early morning hours after the couple returned home from a night out at a bar. Sandoval claimed in the petition that since the two became a couple in February 2024, Victoria Lee Robinson has been violent and attacked him physically, as well as changing the passwords on his phone and social media and tracking him using Airtags.
“The most recent physical incident occurred on June 3 when [she] punched my face and injured my neck and ear. During this same incident, Mr. Robinson, grabbed me and punched an approximately 12-inch hole in the door of my spare bedroom where I was barricading myself,” reads the petition.
In a video, obtained by TMZ, that captured part of the June 3 incident, Victoria Robinson and Will Robinson are seen sitting next to a lit fire pit on the patio when Sandoval and Will Robinson begin arguing. Sandoval is heard yelling at Will Robinson before he asks Victoria Robinson if she is recording and approaches her. Will Robinson stands and wraps his arms around Sandoval, seemingly to get him to back away from Victoria Robinson, and Sandoval turns and pushes Will Robinson, who falls backward into the lit fire pit.
After Will Robinson gets back up, he rushes after Sandoval into the home while Victoria Robinson screams for the men to stop.
According to the petition, the fight escalated, and Will Robinson phoned the police while Sandoval hid inside a spare bedroom. When police arrived, the petition claims that they initially put Sandoval in handcuffs, but after reviewing footage, Victoria Robinson was arrested for intimate partner battery with physical violence.
Robinson bonded out and was released the same day. The Los Angeles Police Department was not able to confirm the reason for Victoria Robinson’s arrest.
Representatives for Sandoval did not immediately respond to The Times’ request for comment. Victoria Robinson could not be reached for comment.
According to the petition, both Victoria Robinson and her father have lived in the Los Angeles rental home with Sandoval. According to the filing, the reality star hopped between hotels and friends’ houses after the June 3 incident.
Will Robinson told TMZ, “The DA did not file the case for a reason. I lifted Tom off of my daughter because he was overpowering and twisting her arm and trying to take her phone aggressively after yelling at us in a very aggressive and threatening manner.”
“This is my daughter’s home and we just want Tom as far away from us as possible and to keep his lies and drunken abuse away,” Robinson said.
Movie Reviews
Movie review: Hero of folklore worse off in ‘The Death of Robin Hood’
“Who lives, who dies, who tells your story?” This is one of the culminating lines from Lin-Manuel Miranda’s smash hit 2015 musical “Hamilton,” but it’s also the animating force behind Michael Sarnoski’s “The Death of Robin Hood,” starring Hugh Jackman in the title role. This legendary figure of English folklore has a specific meaning attached to his name, which is synonymous with the altruistic impulse to redistribute wealth. But in his take on the tale, focusing on the end of his life, Sarnoski suggests that perhaps Robin Hood wasn’t such a good guy, even if he was robbing from the rich to give to the poor. It all depends on who’s telling the story, right?
Sarnoski burst onto the scene in 2021 with his debut feature “Pig,” in which he outfitted Nicolas Cage with a long gray wig and sent him on a dangerous quest (to find his beloved, valuable pet). He does something similar in “The Death of Robin Hood,” outfitting Jackman in a long gray wig and sending him on a quest (to achieve some kind of salvation).
But first, Sarnoski has to establish that this Robin Hood isn’t the one we remember from the movies — he’s not the dashing cartoon Disney fox, or Errol Flynn, or Kevin Costner, or Cary Elwes, or Russell Crowe, or even Taron Egerton. No, this Robin Hood is much worse, sleeping in matted filth on the moors, reduced to a feral life of constant vigilance against murderous revenge-seekers for the years of evil deeds he’s carried out with his compatriot, Little John (Bill Skarsgård).
Now called Edward, Little John has achieved some measure of domesticity, but still, he and Robin go a-murdering once again, resulting in a yet another vengeful attack from a relative of their victims. A wounded Robin ends up in an idyllic priory on a coastal island, tended to by a healer, Brigid (Jodie Comer), learning the ropes from the local leper (Murray Bartlett). In this oasis, Robin’s identity is unknown, and he finds the space to embrace a gentler side of himself, particularly with Little John/Edward’s daughter, Little Margaret (Faith Delaney).
Set on the misty outlying islands of the North Atlantic, with its blend of bloody, brutal violence, primitive spirituality and meditative tone, “The Death of Robin Hood” is situated in the realm of films like David Lowery’s “The Green Knight” and Robert Eggers’ “The Northman.” Cinematographer Pat Scola pulls some arresting images out of the fire and fog, and the score of largely traditional Celtic music by Jim Ghedi is easily one of the best of the year. The film is a fine showcase for a different kind of performance from Jackman, and Comer is always a compelling screen presence.
But “The Death of Robin Hood” isn’t as hallucinatory or weird as it could — or should — be. Sarnoski gestures at bleakness but feints from full existential crisis; he tries and fails to be witchy. Despite all the mud and blood, nothing about this film is particularly earthy or embodied. It ends up as this profoundly dull and utterly pointless commentary on the concept of narrative and mythology. “What if Robin Hood was a bad guy?” OK, what of it? The best concept that Sarnoski presents here is the hell of living in an endless cycle of vengeance, but he allows his anti-hero to escape that all too cleanly and conveniently. This Robin Hood is just an old, tired man who ultimately finds some peace at the end of his life, even if it’s unearned.
As an audience, we’re left wondering what all of this is for, and who it’s for. Why trouble the Robin Hood myth at all, and why now? One can’t help but cynically wonder if the inspiration for this project was merely the convenience of recognizable intellectual property and available financing from Screen Ireland. This theory might be creatively pessimistic, but it is a nagging question, especially when the ones posed by the film are already so stale and tired. Expect no revelations from “The Death of Robin Hood” except the one that’s announced in the title.
‘The Death of Robin Hood’
2 stars (out of 4)
MPA rating: R (for strong bloody violence)
Running time: 2:03
How to watch: In theaters June 19
Entertainment
‘The Bear’ at closing time: Ayo Edebiri and Jeremy Allen White reflect on five seasons
Should I stay or should I go?
It’s at once a practical and existential question that plagues the two lead chefs in FX’s “The Bear.” He was the emotionally tortured and volatile chef who left behind a rising career in Michelin-starred restaurants to return to Chicago, his hometown, to run his recently deceased brother’s floundering sandwich joint. She was a Culinary Institute of America-trained chef with potential and a steady demeanor seeking mentorship and an opportunity to work with a prodigy. Together, Carmen “Carmy” Berzatto and Sydney “Syd” Adamu — played by Jeremy Allen White and Ayo Edebiri, respectively — transformed the Original Beef of Chicagoland from a hole-in-the-wall into the titular fine-dining establishment.
But now their partnership in the kitchen has come to an end.
Created by Christopher Storer, “The Bear’s” fifth and final season picks up the morning after Syd, Richie (Ebon Moss-Bachrach) and Nat (Abby Elliott) learn Carmy is quitting the food industry and leaving the restaurant in their hands at a make-or-break moment. And the pressure mounts for Syd to decide if she’ll jump ship to pursue another opportunity. The eight-episode season, now streaming in full on Hulu, largely stretches across one day as the restaurant’s debts accumulate, suppliers cut them off and an unrelenting storm floods the kitchen and threatens to upend a night of service the chefs desperately need to have one last shot at survival and one last performance as a team to deliver an improbable turnaround.
In some ways, it’s a journey that mirrors the actors’ own trajectories. Before “The Bear” became a runaway hit, White was best known for his role on Showtime’s long-running dark comedy “Shameless,” while Edebiri primarily worked as a stand-up comedian and writer. Just as their characters have evolved and gained electric momentum in their careers, so have the actors. Both garnered Emmy Awards for their performances on “The Bear,” and they have added a multitude of film and TV credits to their résumés since. Edebiri is currently starring opposite Don Cheadle in the revival of “Proof,” her Broadway debut, while White will be starring this fall as an investigative reporter in Aaron Sorkin’s “The Social Reckoning,” a companion piece to “The Social Network” that chronicles Facebook’s whistleblower scandal.
Over separate video calls from New York, Edebiri and White reflected on “The Bear’s” conclusion and what it means to leave the characters that supercharged their careers behind. Here are edited excerpts from the conversations.
Ayo Edebiri as Sydney Adamu and Jeremy Allen White as Carmen “Carmy” Berzatto in a scene from Season 5 of “The Bear.”
(FX)
After living inside these characters’ skins for so many years, what’s it like to be done playing them?
Edebiri: They keep saying that we’re done, so I guess that really is the thing of it. Obviously I know that it’s over, but even when we were finishing our first seasons, it didn’t matter how much critical acclaim we got because we’re on a show that’s a part of a network that has a deal with the streaming service — there’s all these things that are continually in flux or that you know that you have no control over. As an actor, you’re used to this state of limbo or not totally knowing or being prepared for an ending, so I think I’m not overwhelmed by it, if that makes sense.
White: I don’t know yet. We were very lucky to understand for a long time when the show was going to end and, to a degree, how the show was going to end. It was difficult to see the direction it went — I have strong feelings about Carmy and where he ends up and how his story might continue on. So much of this season, for Carmy, is about a surrender or acceptance of his place in the world and his place in the kitchen, and it’s the first time he’s really been able to get very honest with himself since we’ve met him. And, in doing so, he chooses to leave, and that was hard for me, for Jeremy. Maybe there’s a world in which he tries this and he comes back. I think I had a different understanding for a while of Carmy’s future. I want him to be happy and healed, but it felt like … I don’t know — imagining him outside of a kitchen was hard for me.
I want to unpack that a little bit more. He wants to be happy. But it was interesting to see him wrestle with how his work hinders that — is it the crutch or the salvation? Did you find yourself having an existential moment as Jeremy taking in what Carmy was wrestling with, or have you reckoned with it before?
White: He threw himself into this work, into this world, pretty young in life. And he was really good at it. But a big part of him burying himself has so much to do with his brother, with his family. I was finishing something too. And, yes, of course, I was thinking of goodbyes, and I was thinking of moving on, and new pursuits and all of these things. I was checking in with myself and what it might feel like to just make such a hard turn in life. I thought a lot about what you get back from your work, but I think ultimately, what Carmy and I don’t share is he was causing so much chaos in his work life; it wasn’t just himself that he was punishing at times. It came down to this surrender to an easier way, a softer way, which was to turn it over to Syd, to turn it over to Richie, to turn it over to Tina in the kitchen — that part, I had an easier time understanding.
“The most beautiful thing about their relationship is their true unconditional belief in one another,” says Allen about Sydney and Carmy in “The Bear.”
(David Urbanke / For The Times)
Syd was facing a crossroads: a shiny new job that could take her to the next level or sticking with this seemingly sinking ship that has taken her to the next level, but where she’s felt unappreciated or stifled at times. Ayo, what did you think of the choice she made?
Edebiri: We’re really fortunate to have such amazing writers who thought about her and her journey. [There’s] an awareness of Sydney’s womanhood and Blackness and youth, but I think [they treated] her with the full dignity of just being a human being and getting able to be a complex character in this show and giving her the dignity of being just as flawed as the other characters. [The choice she made] just made sense to me. It made sense in the architecture of the show. It was gratifying to get to build to that with everybody.
The bulk of this final season has the team dealing with this massive storm that’s created a slew of setbacks at a make–or–break moment for the restaurant. It leads to one final symphony in the kitchen together.
White: Those days were beautiful. So much of our show is shot so quickly, but then we really get to slow down with these choreographed pieces of kitchen ballet, and that’s also when we feel really strong as a group of performers, where we’re incredibly reliant on one another, not just for the emotional beats of a scene, but in this very technical aspect as well. I remember going back to Season 1 and filming Episode 7, “The Review,” which was the single-take episode, and just how much camaraderie came from that, and how much respect came from that for everyone — that feeling of real success that we could do this. It’s a really nice thing that happens sometimes on sets, where there is such a nice mirror of what’s going on with the characters and what’s going on with the cast. In this last push, and this team effort, we want these things as the characters, and we want these things as the cast. We want these people to have what they want, what they deserve, so it was really exciting shooting that last episode or two where all those things are coming into place.
Edebiri: That’s Chris’ thing — it’s like a classical piece of music or something; there’s different movements. His own challenge that he puts on himself, and that, in turn, puts on us, is that we’re still in the same piece of music, but everything just has a different feeling. He’d been talking about it since, low-key, Season 3, but definitely started talking about it a little bit more concertedly when we were filming [Season] 4. It was really starting to take shape in his brain. This challenge of having it be in this one day, and how each episode can feel different, was really exciting to him, so in turn, it became exciting to us.
Were you hoping for more runway to chart what the characters were facing?
Edebiri: No, I think it was cool. I was just like, “Yeah, let’s see what it is.” That’s kind of what everything has been with this show. Part of her emotional journey for the last season, what was on a slower track, in a way, there was something also really fun in having the pressure cooker of one day, and everything getting to ramp up and be quite immediate, which I think has been reminiscent of Seasons 1 and 2 in a fun way.
(FX)
Carmy and Sydney’s dynamic has been so fundamental to the series. These are two people who see something in each other that the other doesn’t. What do you admire about their relationship as friends and as co–workers?
White: The most beautiful thing about their relationship is their true unconditional belief in one another. They see the beautiful things in one another that the other one is not able to witness in themselves. Even though trust has been tested and trust has been broken at times, there is such a loyalty to the best in themselves. They know that they can rely on one another. In a lot of ways, they saved each other. That piece in the opening episode of Season 3, where Carmy gets the call about Mikey and serves the scallop to Syd without ever having met her — there is this invisible tether that was not witnessed by either of them, but it inspired Syd, and whether Carmy knew it or not, this thing was loved and enjoyed by someone that was birthed from this very traumatic moment. There’s just this beautiful, invisible tether that has always existed and will always exist between the two of them.
Edebiri: What I admire about it is the fact that they are able to bring out — through a lot of miscommunication and hard work, but ultimately, I think, with good intentions — the best in each other. They want to see each other be the best versions of themselves.
How is that reflected in your dynamic? Jeremy, who is Ayo as a scene partner and what has she brought out in you as a performer, and vice versa?
White: I was really so lucky to kind of witness Ayo in real time — everybody else had to wait some months to see her on the show. I remember genuinely being struck by her presence, her groundedness. It felt like, if this makes sense, wrong because she was doing it so well. She’s incredibly smart, she’s a wonderful writer, and she’s very skilled improvisationally, and so, in acting with her, there’s something that always makes you feel very in the moment. You can never like relax, in the best way. It’s like you always have to surrender yourself to each moment.
Edebiri: When we first started, I was coming from the comedy world, and he was coming from a much more dramatic world. Our approaches were so different. He has such amazing presence of being and a quiet focus and has such care for the work. He’s a really great leader. There are ideas in society of men in power, and what power held by men has to look like and feel like, and he’s very gentle — especially in the show, which can live so much in the space of chaos and anxiety, having a gentle spirit really helps with filming. He’s so good at making that very clear and helping teach me that as well … I’ve definitely learned from him, without realizing it, ways to protect yourself and protect your peace, and protect also the peace of your co-workers — you get the work done, you be serious about it, but it doesn’t have to be torture.
Edebiri on working with White: “When we first started, I was coming from the comedy world, and he was coming from a much more dramatic world. Our approaches were so different. He has such amazing presence of being and a quiet focus and has such care for the work.” (David Urbanke / For The Times)
What was it like to see them get this thing they’ve been after — not one, but two Michelin stars?
White: Reading that moment —there’s been so much pain and heartache … for years and years and years, and I was just so relieved to see this joyous moment on the page. It felt so, so close to the surface of me already. And we — Jeremy and Ayo — have shared so many insane, joyous moments in our lives since the show. So it felt familiar in the best way. I’m so glad for that moment for both of them — for Carmy and Syd.
Edebiri: We’re shooting it so fast. You always wish you just had more time, and that was one of the last scenes — I think it was the last thing that he and I shot. There’s obviously a bit of a preciousness and emotionality that you’re feeling in that moment, while also tapping into what’s happening to the characters. It’s this thing that, in the brain of myself, we’ve been building to this over five seasons. There’s obviously a somewhat meta reflection of what we’ve gone through — this is just such a crazy journey. But I think at the end of it, especially because of what we know is going to change in their relationship, that in their working proximity, that they are not going to be close, but they know that they were able to do this thing and build this thing together, I think [is] what felt very special, and felt very cool. I hope it’s something that people who have loved the show also feel.
Fans have intense feelings about their relationship, as I’m sure you know. Has it surprised you how strongly people feel about their dynamic?
White: I know that exists. I don’t have too much knowledge on how that all works. It’s funny, I’m very aware of it now because it’s become part of a conversation around the show, but it was nonexistent in our approach to the work. It wasn’t even a thought for either of us. It didn’t occur to us. But I understand it. There is an intimacy, of course, with these two characters. And there is this trust. They lean on each other and they admire each other so much. I’m not like — nobody’s crazy to feel that. There is love there, it’s just not a romantic partnership.
Edebiri: It surprised me the first two [seasons] because I don’t think that that’s what we were doing. Anytime that you say otherwise, I’ve learned [not to]. It’s been hard when doing press, it feels like we get asked specific questions to try to give a specific answer, but the point of art is we make it and we give it. If people are having a response, that’s great, and if I don’t agree with you, I don’t think I’m shutting it down or anything. We made something, then you’re picking something up — that’s the exchange.
White says he knows fans have intense feelings about the relationship between Carmy and Syd. “It’s funny, I’m very aware of it now because it’s become part of a conversation around the show, but it was nonexistent in our approach to the work. It wasn’t even a thought for either of us.” (David Urbanke / For The Times)
Carmy has a few heartfelt conversations this season, but one that really stands out is the one with his mom, played by Jamie Lee Curtis, while revisiting the family home he’s stayed away from for years. He cooks for her. She’s remorseful. Jeremy, what did you think of that moment for Carmy?
White: There’s resistance in it. People like Carmy, you can give them the answer, you can give them the sorry, you can give them the opportunity, and a lot of the times they don’t know what to do with it, or they push it away, or they push it down. What that scene was about, for Carm, was becoming available to even listen. That was the conflict of the scene and the moment. But he was able to eventually get to that acceptance to release some of the resentment, to release some of the anger. Then he is able to show up for her, which was what has been absent. He was able to take it and give her something. It’s been years, if ever, that he’s really been able to do that, to get out of his own way, and be of service in that way to his mother.
Ayo, it was really touching to see Syd naming Tina her chef de cuisine. How did you feel about what that sets up for where Syd and the Bear might be headed with these women as partners in the kitchen?
Edebiri: I loved it. I love getting to work with Liza [Colón-Zayas]. I’ve been so privileged to also be able to direct her — she’s just phenomenal. I think about these two characters, where they started Day 1; Tina was pretending not even to speak English just to stay away from the girl. It was rough from the get-go, but I think both for Liza and I, as two women of color as well, we felt so invested in their relationship and the community they built with each other. There’s something very moving about that to me. Part of the thing for Sydney, she doesn’t know — I think Carmy can see it — that one of her strengths is that they’re different types of leaders. Part of what I think makes Sydney a great leader is that she’s able to delegate and actually remove herself when she knows that she might not be the best in a situation, it might be somebody else.
I haven’t actually seen it. I can’t watch the episodes, but I know when we were filming it, it was both very sweet and very funny. I don’t know if they kept any of the improv from Liza.
You can’t watch because you’re emotional about it or because you just don’t have access?
Edebiri: No, I don’t want to. We were doing all this press and everybody was, “You were so emotional; you wanted to cry, right?” And I’m like, “No, I just don’t want to watch.” I’ll watch it later. The only season that I watched before [it aired], frankly, was 3 and 4 because I had episodes that I made in it. I love the show and I know the show is good. I don’t enjoy watching myself.
I do love that Syd’s ethos in the kitchen is borrowed from “Ratatouille.”
Edebiri: Yes, f—ing rat. It tracks for Sydney.
“I love getting to work with Liza [Colón-Zayas],” says Edebiri about her co-star, whose character is named chef de cuisine. “I’ve been so privileged to also be able to direct her — she’s just phenomenal.”
(FX)
Jeremy, what was your reaction when you read Carmy is in a suit interviewing for an internship at an architectural firm? And what he expresses there?
White: I understand and I’m proud of the courage that it takes [to do a life pivot], but also I tried to play that scene in a way where I didn’t want it to be entirely clear [what happens next]. I wanted the question to be like, “Is this guy still so f— up in the head that he’s trapped regardless of his place in this world, or place of work? Is it a romance that he’s saying goodbye to? Is it a love that he still has, and he’s not quite over yet?” Then I was like, “Do we snap out of that scene and we’re back on the clock?” What is this? I think the goal of the scene is it shouldn’t be all too clear and wrapped up.
What do you think?
White: I could see there’s obviously so much love. There’s love for the people he works with, and there’s love for the paces he’s gone through, but I didn’t know. … I didn’t know if it was a goodbye or an admittance. I think I was trying to find something between him coming clean and being like, you know what, I don’t belong anywhere else or I’m so in love with this thing, but it’s not good for me, and I think it exists somewhere in between that.
Ayo, what was your reaction to Carmy interviewing at the firm?
Edebiri: I was like, “Yeah, that makes sense. This boy’s a noodle.” He’s a fool, he’s ridiculous. It makes sense.
Where do you think he goes from here? Have you thought about it? Do you think he will ever find his way back to the kitchen?
White: I haven’t thought about it too much. I do think there’s something really honest about that direction that Carmy was moving into, but I would hope there’ll always be room for him somewhere in a kitchen.
Edebiri: Syd is like, “You can’t do anything else, brother. Like, what’s the plan?” I don’t know if he takes a break, if he comes back to help her, if he does his own thing.
What do you think happens to the Bear?
Edebiri: I think they do well. It’s not just her; it’s her and Sugar and Richie and Marcus and Tina. She got in it for Carmy, but I think she ended up finding her own voice. I think they keep going, at least for a few more years. I really do.
White: I have to believe that all the pain and suffering and trauma — not only that Carmy has gone through, but that everybody has gone through — is for some greater good. That there is a payoff. My hope is that it would be successful. They’ll have the endurance and the motivation to make it.
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