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Former Vice President Mike Pence believes Washington is more ‘swampy’ under Trump
Since leaving office, former Vice President Mike Pence founded the policy and advocacy organization Advancing American Freedom.
Drew Angerer/Getty Images
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Drew Angerer/Getty Images

Since leaving office, former Vice President Mike Pence founded the policy and advocacy organization Advancing American Freedom.
Drew Angerer/Getty Images
Former Vice President Mike Pence played a key role in bringing President Trump to power in 2016. By putting his name on the Republican ticket, he helped reassure the Republican establishment and evangelical voters who were wary of Trump’s brash brand of populism.
Pence’s departure from Trump’s leadership of the Republican party began when Trump called on Pence to refuse to certify the results of the 2020 election — pressure Pence rejected.
“For four years, we had a close working relationship. It did not end well,” Pence wrote in his memoir So Help Me God, which was released in 2022.
In the years since leaving office, Pence has been advocating for an ideological restructure of the Republican party, and founded the policy and advocacy organization Advancing American Freedom. Pence builds on the theme of reimagining the Republican party in his new book What Conservatives Want, which provides a critique of the second Trump administration and what he terms the “populist right.”
In an interview with Morning Edition, Pence detailed to NPR’s Steve Inskeep his critique of the second Trump administration, shared his perspective on civil rights legislation and challenged Trump’s tariffs and other interventions in the economy.
Listen to the full interview by clicking on the blue play button above; and read highlights from the conversation below.
‘The populist right’ does not represent conservative beliefs
Pence believes that Trump has embraced “the populist right” over traditional conservatives in the Republican party.
The sale of economic American company U.S. Steel to Nippon Steel in Japan exemplifies this shift, Pence said.
In his first term, President Trump opposed the sale. But in his second term, he approved the sale and took a golden share — a class of shares in which a government can own a very small percentage of the company but has outsized voting rights.
Pence said that he was taken aback by Trump’s decision to take a golden share.
Free trade is essential to American conservatism
Pence takes umbrage with his former boss’ tariff-laden economic policy.
Pence said it violates conservatism’s bedrock belief in the power of free trade, and Trump has gone about granting exceptions to tariffs in an unfair way.
Granting waivers to large corporations from certain tariffs is “one of the lesser reported aspects of the tariff regime that’s been imposed by the administration,” Pence added.
Trump and Pence ran in 2020 on a mission to “drain the swamp,” rooting out government corruption and wasteful spending. However, Pence said Trump appears to have shifted from those goals.
“There’s maybe nothing more swampy than the battle over getting tariff waivers for big business,” Pence said.
Women’s rights on the right
There is a debate among the ultraconservative right about the role of women in civic life.
The concept of “household voting,” has become a familiar talking point for ultra-right-wing communities online. Supporters of “household voting” advocate that every American household should get one vote, the vote being that of the husband’s. This concept has been promoted by figures such as Abby Johnson, a prominent anti-abortion activist who spoke at the 2020 Republican National Convention. When asked about whether he supported household voting, Pence said he is not aligned
“It’s one person, one vote in this country. And people have bled and died for that principle throughout the years of our history,” Pence said.
He added that American families don’t need to be propped up by government programs to boost childbirth. “What American families need is an application of the kind of principles that will create higher wages, more opportunities, more jobs,” Pence said.
Should conservatives stand for civil rights?
Pence said he was an admirer of senator and one-time presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.
Notably, Goldwater voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
“Should conservatives stand for civil rights?” asked Inskeep.
Pence responded that civil rights are important to conservatives, but that equality of opportunity is what legislation ought to enshrine, not equality of outcome.
Pence added that he stood by the Supreme Court’s decision to ban partisan gerrymandering on the basis of race, rendering ineffective a key provision of the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
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‘Supergirl’ has a solid hero but could use a better villain : Pop Culture Happy Hour
Milly Alcock in Supergirl.
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Hollywood’s newest Supergirl is kind of a dirtbag — in the good way. Fearless and grumpy, Supergirl (Milly Alcock) sets out on a quest to support a new pal’s revenge journey and to make a point that should be clear by now: Never mess with a lady’s dog. Also featuring David Corenswet and Jason Momoa, is Supergirl a worthy follow up to Superman?
If you want more DC superhero action, check out these episodes:
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L.A. Affairs: After decades of near-misses, I finally told him: ‘I’m not leaving here without you’
It didn’t take endless quarantining with my spouse during the COVID-19 pandemic to end my marriage of over two decades. By the summer of 2019, menopause — and the extra-added “bonus” of frontal fibrosing alopecia that it awakened — was pummeling me physically and mentally to the extent that I no longer had the capacity to function inside the dysfunction of my life.
The relief that came with the decision to finally let go was completely dwarfed by the immense pain of severing a family in two. I cried as I packed. I cried as I unpacked. I was rolling endlessly in a dark wave that would not stop; my feet could not tell sand from sky. Once I managed to break the surface, I reached out.
I called Tish, Diane and Michelle, three smart, strong, nurturing women who’d been through and survived divorce. I also called my brother, Dan, and my friends Doug and Steve, three kind, creative, funny men who always “got” me.
As for Steve, we met in the spring of 1984 when he auditioned to be the drummer for the Secrets, the band Dan, Doug and I had started the year before. In our small-town high school of fewer than 400 students, he had flown completely under my radar, as he was two years younger, and he joined marching band the year after I’d ditched my baritone horn for a microphone and Pat Benatar tights. Steve aced the audition, and the four of us clicked immediately over our shared love of the Pretenders and all things Monty Python. By mid-June, the Secrets were playing local bars and biker parties in the middle of nowhere, and I was head over heels in love with the drummer.
It wasn’t supposed to happen like that. I wasn’t supposed to fall in love with a boy from my hometown.
I had spent my whole life dying to get out of Middlebourne, W.Va., and had been champing at the bit to leave for college, but by late August, that no longer meant freedom; it meant that I’d have to leave Steve behind. I told myself we’d defy the odds and make it work. He was my soul mate. But we were just kids, and there was no internet, no cellphones with unlimited text and calling. By February 1985, the divide was too great. In a moment of loneliness, I cheated on him. It was over, and I was firmly told to take my place in the friend zone.
I spent the following year flailing and failing in college before making the bold, half-baked decision to drop out of the West Virginia University theater program and move to Los Angeles, a place I’d never been, to pursue a singing career. When Steve found out that I was moving across the country, he softened his friend-zone stance and told me he loved me. On July 13, 1986, he went with my parents to Pittsburgh International Airport to see me off.
For the next 33 years, we would come together and drift apart — sometimes as lovers but mostly as friends. During a visit to my Hollywood apartment in 1988, when he was still in college and the timing was still wrong, I told him, “Who knows. Maybe in 30 years, I’ll come back and get you.”
In November 2019, Steve came to visit me for a long weekend.
I picked him up at Los Angeles International Airport and took him straight to Zuma Beach for a picnic, where we watched dolphins jumping in the waves while the seagulls stole our potato chips. The following day, we cozied up for an afternoon of wine and cheese at Cornell Wine Co. in Old Agoura, then made our way over Topanga Canyon for dinner at Canyon Bistro & Wine Bar.
The night before he flew home, we watched the sun set from our table by the lake at Zin Bistro Americana in Westlake Village. I felt giddy, excited, seen, understood and appreciated in a way I hadn’t felt in a very long time. While it was tempting to jump right in with both feet, we decided to date long distance and take things slowly.
On March 26, 2020, while Steve was still recovering from being profoundly ill with COVID, I arrived at his doorstep at 6 a.m. and proclaimed, “I’m not leaving here without you.”
Two weeks later, after packing most of his belongings into U-Haul shipping crates, we left Parkersburg, W.Va., in Steve’s red Volkswagen Golf with two suitcases, one Treeing Walker Coonhound and one Aussie/Chow mix. I-40 West was practically empty; just us and the occasional car or Amazon truck.
We arrived in California on Easter Sunday and joined the rest of the world in quarantine, not knowing how it would affect our work and financial future. We took a lot of long walks to help deal with the stress of the not knowing, but the magic panacea for me came the day Steve’s Harley-Davidson arrived in one of the crates.
We cruised up and down PCH, and roared our way up and over Mulholland Highway, Stunt Road, Malibu Canyon and Decker Canyon, stopping along the way to stretch our legs, feel the sea spray on our faces and take in views from the valleys to the coastline. We were surrounded by so much beauty; it was almost impossible to let trepidation win.
On one particularly memorable ride on Mulholland Highway between Kanan Road and SR 23 near Saddle Rock, we came around a bend and — bam! — right in front of me was the greenest mountain range I’d ever seen in California, gleaming spectacularly in the sunlight. As I inhaled its gorgeousness and exhaled my stress, I thought, “I can’t believe I get to see this. I can’t believe I get to do this. I can’t believe I get to be with Steve.”
In September 2024, I got to marry Steve.
As my brother, Dan, said at the reception, “What a long, strange trip it’s been.”
The author lives in the suburbs of Los Angeles with her husband, Steve, and their dogs, Coco Puff and Kira.
L.A. Affairs chronicles the search for romantic love in all its glorious expressions in the L.A. area, and we want to hear your true story. We pay $400 for a published essay. Email LAAffairs@latimes.com. You can find submission guidelines here. You can find past columns here.
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